Family Group Therapy

[Daisym0use]

Hi

I have been pretty much forced into family therapy through the court system. My ex is an abusive man and clearly gets it from his parents. I know that they just want to get me in a room to tell me what a bad person I am but I don't know what to expect and I'm terrified. I left him years ago bacause of DV but the courts have pretty much ignored that.

Can anyone give me any info as I just don't know what to expect.

[Daisym0use]

It's so nice to hear that other people think it's unfair too as I have been told by the court that it doesn't matter how I feel it's the children who count (which surprises me as they don't seem to either) I have had to pull out all the stops to keep strong for the children under very difficult circumstances but it's hard. I've asked for a guardian ad litem but they ordered a wishes and feelings report instead which the next bench took no notice of anyway even though it said the children catagorically stated they did not want any contact. It's like bashing your head against a brick wall. The Cafcass officer told the court to ignore the childrens wishes anyway even though he said they were consistant. I really want to complain about the cafcass officer, I found him condescending, patronising and incompetant. I'm scared of rocking the boat though. I want NYAS to get involved but I don't seem to be able to move them in that direction.

Yes the law is an ass achillea, my poor DC's have suffered so badly. I've done several position statements but no-one will make a decision. Someone once told me the courts would move heaven and earth to keep children and absent parents in contact. Unfortunately the courts don't see the utter devestation it leaves. I've had to witness some terrible reactions from my kids. My son told me he was so scared of seeing his father that he wanted to kill himself. It was the most awful thing I have ever heard and I thought surely the court would now care but they didn't. I was made to feel like a drama queen and told he didn't know what he was saying. He really did though, no-one in the court had to see the pain in my little boys eyes when he told me.
The courts don't care, in my experience the courts help him with his abuse. He can sit back and let someone else make me miserable and make horrible threats to me. I've come to terms with it being unfair, I just have to deal with it and keep my nose clean.

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

Interesting. I'm positive it could! Especially in cases like this where it is so distressing and disruptive..

[achillea]

This is just awful. The law is an ass, but the people in the court are human beings. They hide behind a cloak of words and laws but in the end they do understand what they are saying and have to take responsibility for those words.

It does sound to me as though they are due a statement from you, a statement that can summarise the stuff they can't be bothered to read and that will put you forward as a real person with real children that can be hurt and damaged by the things that they say, threaten, and above all, the things that they don't say.

Even if you don't get to read it out in court, it might help just to write it down and keep it up your sleeve should the opportunity to actually speak in a big court full of scary men with loads of money should arise.

I wonder if it can be proved that the act of repeatedly taking you to court is a form of domestic violence - coercive controlling behaviour - this is one of the behaviours that is now deemed as DV in the eyes of the law (not sure if it's valid now or will be valid from March 2013 though).

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

Formal complaint with CAFCASS that should say, sorry

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

You should be able to, or in the library, but i found it useful to have my own copy.

Have you thought about getting social services involved on the DC's behalf.. much as i despise them i admit they do have their uses and one of those is protecting children and they will fly in the face of courts if they have to, plus they will know all the legal jargon.

The kids should have a guardian ad litem .. is he/she doing their job properly? If not, put in a formal complaint. Make it clear you take no nonsense

[Daisym0use]

Thanks Things, I've certainly felt much better the last few days with all the support i've recieved on here. I don't feel as though I'm on my own because in general life I feel like I'm the only one and my friends really don't understand.
I'd really like to be able to stop him from taking me to court but the court i'm in seem to be determined to exhaust every last possible option. This therapy seems to be another box ticking exercise.
Will I find a copy of the childrens act on the net? I'll do some digging around and have a chat with my solicitor about because I really do feel like my human rights are being breached. It wouldn't be so bad if my ex was made to prove that he had made an effort but he just sits in court with a smug look on his face.
I get threatened with prison by my exs solicitor, the court clerk and the magistrates. I have never breached a single order, have done everything asked of me but it still doesn't seem to be enough. What is really upsetting is that they don't read reports about how badly the children have been affected and then come out with the pompous crap that has no relevance because they couldn't be arsed to read the details!
I'm ranting again lol!

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

Dont be sorry.. i've felt better and worse after ranting or opening up on here but ultimately its a safe place to have those moments or feelings, most others here at some point will have felt the same, or supported someone who did, so you're in a good place, surrounded by sisters/best friends who you just haven't met in person.. they won't bullshit you or pat your head but they offer support and a safe rant place. :)

Ok on to your contact sessions, well, his. Who on earth allows them to go on in that manner? Are they supervised?
Definately ask about having his right to apply to the court for orders to be taken away. Its ridiculous that he is able to use the court to continue his abuse in this way.
Who threatens you with prison? The judge? And what for? Contempt of court?
Thats 28 days in prison .. i would love to say trust me they very rarely actually use that especially against a parent with care, but that was back in the day, when i was going through it, the judge mentioned it and my response was 'well i do have contempt..... for the judge not the court she represents, she is not being fair in my opinion' she soon wound her neck in. Just because these people are in high up positions doesn't make them better or decent..
If contact leaves the children distressed and your solicitor won't do as instructed and complain on your behalf about it, sack her on the spot, self rep is fantastic in one way because it enables you to say what you want within reason of course and at that point i would say that the children have chosen not to have contact, the forced contact leaves them distressed and isn't being managed or supervised properly. And what court in the land forces children to suffer.
See what their response is.

The darker side of self repping as i'm sure you're aware is that you're treated like shit on the bottom of the judges' shoe as well as the solicitors present, the court clerk.. everyone, pretty much, lol. They don't like that you have free speech free representation and possibly do better research on the case then them.
Buy beg borrow or steal a copy of the childrens act 1989 and its amendments in i think 2002? .. Quote from it re emotional abuse, when you make your argument about the kids contact.
Find out which of your human rights is being breached by his constant crap which they are allowing you to be dragged through.

I hope you are saved all this by your solicitor stepping up to the plate but imo i found them pretty useless, you're just a file to most of them.

If you're in or around Birmingham i can't recommend Sarah Tierney From Glaysiers highly enough, she went out of her way many times for me but i didn't utilise her, i just wasn't in a good place, but she is like a rotty when she gets started lol bless her :)

[Daisym0use]

Oops on iPhone!

Seems to be all about not upsetting the perpetrator. WA are of the same opinion so I don't think I'm the only one that sees it.
I just want to be out of this situation but I have no way out. My ex has made no effort to repair his relationship with dc but still enjoys keeping me in court and they allow it. The children completely refuse any contact and I have had to witness some terrible attempts at contact which have left dc1 particularly distressed for weeks. Dc2 wets the bed and has terrible nightmares around contact. When ex is sent reports he just doesn't care. At contact he threatens them and slavs me off. What do you do? But if i didn't take them the prison threat is out again.
Sorry for waffling on, this is probably much better therapy for me lol

[Daisym0use]

You're so right about the court system, I have found the whole experience horrific. I've suffered from depression through the frustration of being trapped in a situation I feel powerless to stop. I have never breached an order or done any of the things I am accused of. The court think nothing of constantly threatening me with prison for no good reason yet my ex is never reprimanded for his behaviour and knows he could walk away from this at any time but why would he when he can sit across from me in a court room and watch the court
do his abusive work for him! The court talk to me like I'm a naughty
child with no brain. I feel guilty until I can prove my innocence. The court read no information and then lecture me about something that doesn't relate to any of the information or evidence. I could go on and on. I have changed my opinion of the legal system in this country, I can't get over how it doesn't seem to deal with common sense but is all about not u

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

Oh the link was just a description of a vexatious litigant you can google it lol i think i mucked it up hehe

Totally agree with olgaga, he stands a chance of coming out of this looking much worse than you and yes, courts being used as a tool to carry on getting into your mind and life.. happens a LOT.

And by therapy for the kids i mean some adult not you or anyone close to you (or ex nob lol) but independent, to tell them they have rights to choose, teach them its ok to say 'dont talk about my mum like that' or even 'i dont want to see him' and basically have someone to feed back to.

My DS's dad was constantly slagging me off to DS during contacts so he had to be supervised until DS was old enough to ignore his vile crap.
Fortunately since DS2 came along he seems to accept he will never get me back whatever he does and no matter how much he tries to belittle or crush me.

DS likes it that i have nice things to say about his dad, despite in DS' own words.. he was really nasty to you and i remember what he did..

On a total other note, i self repped for years against the social services and was devastated to find out later on that i could have claimed my own 'legal expenses' lol

[olgaga]

Daisy I am so sad to hear about this. It's exactly the kind of injustice which takes place in the family courts because of the abject failure to identify and deal properly with abusive behaviour. It sounds as though your case is a classic example of the court itself being used to facilitate continuing harassment.

Can I recommend you read this book - A Woman in Your Own Right by Anne Dickson. It's full of really helpful techniques and will help you identify manipulative and aggressive behaviour in any setting, and deal with it calmly and with confidence.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0704334208/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

It might help you to prepare a list of all the issues he is likely to raise, and draft out your response - a kind of "briefing note" to yourself. Focus on the fact that no-one knows the history and circumstances of your situation better than you do.

Remind yourself that while this is might be an ordeal, it is also an opportunity to present your real character, rather than the version of you he wants to present. I think he is likely to come out of it looking far worse than you.

Very best of luck, keep us posted.

[Daisym0use]

There's so much more I could say but i'm worried about identifying myself! I think our case has gone alot further than many privately funded cases have as his parents pay his legal bills. I reckon they must have spent £40,000 by now. He will continue making my life difficult as long as they will pay.
It's funny what you said about him trying to slant my DH's view of me as we had just been having that conversation and I anticipate this. We are really strong and we're ready for it. My DH is a wonderful man who has been my rock. I certainly appreciate it him all the more for knowing what the alternative is.
My solicitor is very good. She's not been on board long as I self repped for ages but she has it all worked out and doesn't even charge me full rate. Because I self repped for so long I understand the law quite well so we sort of work it out together.
I've never breached an order, I've never stopped the kids seeing their father so I don't honestly see how FT between us can help. The problem lies with the perseption the kids have of their father and he's a big ball if anger and will never change therefore how can the kids change their feelings towards him. It would be much better if they could but I don't ever see him changing. The kids can go for therapy but when the problem lies with their father perhaps he needs to get therapy first.
You're right he's a complete nob and I still feel the relief of leaving him like I did on the first day!
I couldn't open the link but i'll keep trying

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

I just think its slightly akin to chucking two pit bulls into a ring and expecting them not to scrap.

And before anyone says, i also think dog fighting is VILE so why do it to people.. what useful purpose could it possibly serve?

Give the kids counselling and advice on their rights to see either parent, by all means. Allow them the opportunity to chat about and deal with any worries/hopes/fears ect.

If he feels the inherant need to slag you off maybe he still harbours feelings for you. Thats his problem. He probably relishes, as i'm sure any ex would, the chance to slate you in front of others and put new DH 'in the know as to what you really are.. of course if you and DH are strong, this won't work.

Him and his opinions are nothing to you now unless its to do with the care of the DC's

I would definately be having words with my solicitor though as this seems to be vexatious and harrassing/controlling by constantly dragging you to court (i assume he has a lot of money or gets legal aid, forgive me if i'm wrong) but it affects your life and relationships/work ect. Obviously you will risk letting the bastage see that his behaviour is pissing you off BUT hopefully a judge will agree and he will be barred from doing this crap in one way or another without leave from the court and this will only be granted if they consider his claim has any merit.

http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed82227 is just one example but if you don't ask you don't get so chat with the Sol asap about it
Good luck. The guy sounds a nob and you're well rid x

[Daisym0use]

I love all you ladies, your comments are so helpful and i feel more empowered. I have left a message for the lady at WA so should be able to see her before I go. Thankyou Thingsthatmakeyougohmmm for your post, more brilliant advice there. I just read the last paragraph to my husband and he agreed it was brilliant. He will be there with me and we both thought it was certainly the sort of stance we want to take. I really can't see the point in argueing with him and I think that he will show his true colours.

Have had a nice glass of wine and some chocolate now after a particularly stressful day! Feeling better and ready for a good nights sleep xx

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm]

My ex does nothing but take me to court, it's just unbelieveable that he's been allowed to take me to court so many times and not actually attempt to make an effort.

Ask your solicitor to take him to court on the basis of being a vexatious litigant and his right to take you to court constantly upheaving your life and your children's lives may be stopped. I say may. But it appears you have a strong case.
What he's doing is not only abuse of the court system but its abusive to you and am positive it breaches one or more of your basic human rights. A solicitor with balls who knows their stuff should be able to tell you more.

Do not ever forget that your solicitor works for you Even if it feels rude to tell them what you want, boss them about if needs be.. INSTRUCT them and don't let them faff about in and out of court in the name of money (to line their pockets)

As for everything else, you have had some great advice on here about the upcoming family therapy although it seems pissing stupid beyond belief that they would continue in this day and age to subject anyone to this unless it was simply to create a job for someone.
It seems a bit like they are the spectators and the family is the zoo?!?!

I personally would sit there with a dispassionate look on my face nodding at him understandingly like he was a small child in need of a pat on the head. With much comments of 'Well that's your view/opinion and as such you're entitled to it' and 'I certainly hope those views of me are not expressed in front of the children' peppered with a little 'I'm so sorry you appear to still have some sort of feelings for me even if they are anger and resentment' all said sympathetically and with real concern.. and i would also try not to get drawn into any 'he said/she said' or other conflict.

But thats just me

[Daisym0use]

I hope I get a FT like you curiousgeorgia

[Daisym0use]

my ex wants contact with the dc but we have tried every form of contact possible and it has gone from bad to worse and we are now at the point where GP and other prof have said enough is enough. Gp's words were this was seriously detrimental to the childrens mental health. Unfortunately cafcass officer just would not acknowledge medical evidence even though it was overwhelming. My solicitor was astounded and the court just don't seem to know what to do now. I have agreed to FT before it was forced on me so that I at least had some control of the situation.
My ex does nothing but take me to court, it's just unbelieveable that he's been allowed to take me to court so many times and not actually attempt to make an effort. He turns up for contact but only so that he can be abusive to me and he does it in front of the children. I have now refused to take the dc for contact mainly because it is distressing for the children to see and obviously it affects me badly too.
It seems as well that FT is not going to change how the children think of their father. Even when we were together he was agressive and abusive and he hasn't changed. I really hoped he would have as anything would be better than the situation we are in.
I don't allow myself to hate my ex btw, i don''t think there is anything to be gained by such a negative emotion. I feel sad for him that he has prevented himself from having a relationship with 2 great kids.
Hope i'm not waffling but it's been quite a mentally exhausting day

[curiousgeorgia]

Yes family therapists used to be trained to take a 'neutral' stance with families. We now take adopt a position of curiosity toward what families say about themselves and each other and the problems they are trying to resolve.

But this does not mean that we are blinkered to to the reality of power in relationships whether it's played out through withholding money, use of violence or the threat of violence, child abuse or any other damaging scenario.
And it doesn't mean that a FT won't hold someone to account for their actions.

It's also not clear to me who is asking for the 'therapy' to take place. If it is merely the ex and his parents then the OP can say no. If there is a court mandate for some kind of assessment to take place then the focus will be on whether they can reach and stick to some kind of agreement which doesn't harm the DC's - following this there may be some kind of court order one way or the other.

I don't speak for all FT's. We are not a 'one size fits all' profession and there are good, bad and indifferent therapists of every flavour the world over.

Good luck OP.

[Daisym0use]

Thanks Cestlavie, i'm going to ask lots of questions when I have the initial phonecall. Think i'll start writing them down.
Thanks to you too Sirgoldboobs, I'm overwhelmed by how helpful people on here have been. Still really nervous but don't feel like I'm on my own now.
Something happened this afternoon and it made it even plainer that this therapy is being used as yet another way to control me, I don't think he actually gives a toss whether he sees the kids again as long as he can stop me from getting on with my life!

[SirGOLDBoobs]

Have done family therapy for entirely different reasons. Everyone that has been said above is much more useful than anything I could write, but didn't want to just read it without adding my support. I hope its not too difficult. x

[cestlavielife]

generally what goes on is private - but you might need to clarify this before/at beginning of session if it was court ordered?

[Daisym0use]

Thanks Cestlavie, it sounds like it might cause more frustration than solve any problems!
Do you know ifwhat is said in the sessions is private or is a report made to court?

[cestlavielife]

there is some stuff in lundy banccroft too.
cant find much immediately specifically on FGT and abuse situations but this paper refers -
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1752-0606.1989.tb00775.x/abstract

"All family therapists, and especially Milan-style systemic therapists, have been trained to take a neutral stance regarding family issues, based on a circular causality model of family interaction. Therefore, when therapists deal with family violence, their ability to perceive individual responsibility for unethical behavior is weakened or suppressed. In fact, this ability is the primary tool in developing effective treatment planning in cases of family violence: The actively physically abusive man needs to be in individual and/or group therapy, not conjoint or family therapy. The ethical judgment of the therapist is what determines the limits of family therapy."

maybe curiousgeorge has some more uptodate lierature?

also thinking specifically i found it hard to draw attention to specific incidents which led to the (most recent) cutting of contact - but when i did raise it eventually he did admit that yes (as one example) he had phsyically attacked DD but it was just a bit of hair pulling and that was totally fine as far as he was concerned - his parents and teachers had pulled his hair when he was young..

the therapist said "oh i see..." and did not, for example, intervene to ask if he thought this might not have been fine for dd, from her point of view, and that this might have contributed to her not wanting to see him and losing trust...

[Daisym0use]

Thankyou for the link struwelpeter, I've just managed to find time to read it. It certainly makes me doubt that FGT is the right route to go down. But I feel better prepared being aware so thankyou

[Daisym0use]

Thank you so much ladies, to see this from 2 different angles is really helpful.
My ex was more emotionally/mentally abusive although there was some physical abuse towards my dc1 and myself. Our GP and another healthcare professional involved have already said contact should not be reinstated until dc's are of an age they can cope with contact as they have not coped well at all. That would be in 3 or 4 years time. I am comfortable with that but I can't see that I would agree to contact anytime soon which is what they want (the effects on dc's is heartbreaking and I can't deal with it anymore). Perhaps my ex and his parents are doing it for the right reasons but I seriously doubt it.
I'm so glad I asked for advice on here, I really do feel calmer about it now that I know what to expect.
I'm not sure the therapists in question do deal with cases where DV has been an issue. I want to make enquiries to the centre but don't want to look like I'm being manipulative. (3 years in court makes you nervous of very little thing you do!)