Impact of divorce on small children - better to stay or leave?

[foggybrain]

Hi. I am a regular but namechanger. Does anyone have any research or experience about what is best for v small children in the case of unhappy marriages - a split or parents to try and be amicable and carry on until they are older?

DH and I have (IMO) reached the end of the road in our marriage. Having relate but not really getting anywhere. Having some v bad arguments in front of DC (both under 4). Relate counsellor has tried to get us to focus on being more supportive towards each other although we've failed miserably at both the tasks we agreed to. I feel like it is now a case of when not if we split.

I have read even quite unhappy marriages are better for children than a split if there is no violence etc involved (there isn't). The youngest is under a year. I can't bear the thought of being without them at weekend etc, but want to try and do what's best for them. I am willing to make a massive effort one last time with the marriage if I see evidence that will be better for the children. If not, I guess sooner is better whilst they are still young. If anyone has any research or links I would be really grateful.

My mum stayed with my dad when she hated him. He was jealous, possessive and spent every spare minute he had out with his mates.

I split from my wife when my girl was 4 and she is now 18. Me and her mum get on well and have always been there for her and shown no animosity towards each other. We are both remarried and have other children. She is a happy young woman and the split has not affected her to any noticeable degree.

Meanwhile my mum lives a miserable life after staying with my dad for over 15 years after both me and my brother left home until he passed away. She wasted her life for both me and my brother and our memories are no afffection, rows, silence and in the end just existence.

The key is maintaining a realtionship with your husband if you do split. If they get with another partner or you do then its about accpeting that you were not meant to be together and wishing them well.

Dear Foggy, try hard to get some sleep first off. Can you have a reasonable discussion with H re him taking the DCs off with him one afternoon at the weekend and you doing stuff with them on the other afternoon? Or even just allowing each other a nap? Extreme exhaustion makes things very bleak and it is hard to see a way forward or have the energy to make any kind of move. Also can either or preferably both of you request flexible working, shortened hours -- anything to get a bit more 'you' time.

If relate isn't working for you as a couple how about you going on your own? If you H wants to go on his own, that could be good too?
Agree that hanging on in there when there is nothing left is bad for DCs, but another six months or a year would make little difference at this age - it is teenagers who are able to articulate it most. Not to say younger ones don't feel it but there is more of a chance for them to adapt to new circumstances.

DS is 21 months. There has been a lot of 'dada? dada? dada?' Initially I kept pictures of XH and I together around the house, and I've been gradually moving them to DS's bedroom. As time goes on and I get new pictures I'll replace them with ones of DS and XH together. He likes to wave goodnight to dada's picture, and sometimes kisses him or does a 'beep beep' on his nose. Makes me feel sad and happy at the same time, if that makes sense? I think it's really important for me to encourage a positive relationship between DS and XH, and to give DS permission to talk about him. I think that's a lot easier for me to do now that it would have been in another 5 or whatever years time...

Before we split up, XH was looking after him on a Wednesday while I was at work, so he's carried on doing that, and now he also has him every other weekend. At the moment, DS is still breastfed and co-sleeps with me, so he hasn't had him overnight yet. We agreed to see how DS copes with all the change first and then introduce that gradually.

DS is generally quite a confident, sociable little chap, and he seems to be coping pretty well so far. His sleep has been more disturbed, but I think that's a combination of it having always been pretty rubbish, and me being less strict about nighttime feeds etc because I'm aware of wanting to give him extra reassurance.

It's not easy.

its conflict that is damaging, whether that's part of divorce process or part of ongoing relationship. Divorce itself is not inherently damaging. My personal experience is of parents who argued, mother nagged father, father disengaged. Continual bad atmosphere at home most of my childhood. No love shown between them ever. No chance to learn how a good, healthy relationship works.
I desperately wanted my parents to split up - as did my sibling.

I don't think it is healthy for children to grow up in homes where the two adults are constantly irritated at one another, let alone fighting. How are children expected to learn productive skills of negotiation and compromise in those circumstances?

I hope I don't hurt anyone by saying this but I think it's worth saying:

Adults who have separated seem to say their kids 'have come through/came through' fine and were happier for the split.

Adults whose parents split up when they were children (very often) say they were deeply damaged by it in one way or another (I was). Often they say they didn't show it at the time to protect their parents or because they were in situations they didn't feel were safe or comfortable enough to express themselves.

What I always say is it's not the split itself that is necessarily the problem, it's what happens afterwards - when kids are forced to adjust to new homes/step parents/step siblings/cultures etc and their parents do not always put their needs first especially in the throes of a new relationship.

And while I agree with Bonsoir in theory, in practice how does anyone know that the next situation will be any healthier for the child?

That is very true, Proud. It's definitely the way things are handled afterwards which are important as well.

It's basically bad whatever, I guess. Obviously I can't know who DH might get involved with in the future if we split, and what kind of person they will be. That's one thing that scares me a lot. For myself, I still maintain I don't and wouldn't want anyone else in terms of a long term live in partner.

We would probably eventually share 50:50 although with DC2 so young and still BF not immediately.

DC1 is clearly being affected - having more tantrums and nigthmares recently and says feels nervous. Both DH and I are behaving badly and I am finding it hard to stay in control and not lash out at him.

I feel like we can't carry on like this, but we're going to have to - I don;t think we can manage an amicable split and to put the children first when we're so shattered. DC would have to get used to a new home in all probabilty as niether of us can manage the mortgage alone. Actually, not sure we can sell in any case as in neg. equity so that's another issue.

proud thanks for sharing your experience. If you don't mind me asking was it the split per se or new family dynamics which were so hard (you mention step families)? Are there ways you wish your parents would have managed things better? (don't worry if these are a bit too personal - just really want to get all perspectives).

rushybay meant to say thank you as well - it's good to hear from people who have come through this with small children.

I don't know anything about official studies, only my own experience.

I am an only child, and some of my earliest memories are of my parents arguing. No violence, just loud venomous arguments at least once a week. However, the idea of them getting divorced seemed like the worst thing in the world, even though I HATED the arguments and used to cry and stuff my fingers in my ears when they happened. After one of these arguments, I must have been about 6 or 7, my mum came to talk to me, and in an attempt to make me feel better said that maybe they wouldn't stay together much longer and then everyone would be happier. I remember my heart thudding to the ground and I begged and pleaded with my mum to promise me that they would never get divorced. I continued this begging and pleading quite a lot over the months, and I truly think it had a big effect on my mum and was probably a big part of the reason she stayed with my dad (who's selfish behaviour was probably the main factor in most of the arguments).

Now as an adult...my parents are still together, I think mainly because of finances and also just because they've got set in their ways and can't be bothered to make a change. But I look at them, especially my mum, and think "you don't belong together". They still argue, though less I think, but they don't really make each other happy on a consistent basis. And I feel guilty. Hugely guilty. Because I think if I wasn't piling emotional pressure on my mum she would have got out and made a better life for herself. Even though I know I would have found it very hard to accept at the time, I think my mum deserved better and I hate that she never went out and found it. And from my POV, growing up in a loveless atmosphere is just not good. I definitely think it affected my ability to form relationships and value them properly.

On the flipside, I am now a stepmum. My DP and his ex split up after 9 years together, when their DS was just one year old. He is now 6, and stays with us every other weekend and spends the rest of the time with his mum, her new partner and his half-sister (and step-sister too sometimes). We all have a good relationship, often spend time together as a blended family e.g. for his birthday and other social events. DSS isn't a perfect child (how many are?) but he is essentially happy, loves his little sister and also loves coming to us and being the only child too. He has a life surrounded by love, two homes full of love, half siblings, step siblings, parents, step-parents etc who love him and love each other. I look at what he has, and it convinces me that its better for parents who don't love each other to separate and find that love, rather than stay together just for the sake of their children.

My DP's mother died this year. DP's parents had a very difficult marriage, which culminated in the final 15 years with his father being severely henpecked and putting up with it.

It has been a complete revelation to all of us to see just how completely different a person DP's father is, only seven months after being widowed. He has come into his own entirely and is enjoying life to the full with a new partner. DP really wonders whether his father did the right thing in staying with his mother all those years because DP very certainly did not learn to stand up for himself in relationships and that was the root cause of the failure of his first marriage.

Foggy unfortunately I have to dash so can't tell you my experiences in detail. I will try to post later but by all means PM me. Very very briefly, was in unhappy step family, with dad and stepmum and step siblings. Much tension, dad not supporting me and no-one asking me about my feelings. Lots of changes.
Put your dc first, properly first. Talk to them, listen to them - all the obvious things but things some parents just don't do enough.

Thanks proud I've got to run as well but will PM you this evening.

I think overall there's probably a better chance at a good outcome if you split. The split doesn't have to be amicable, you can still bitch at each other, but you do both need to put the children first.

foggy - I think whether it can be amicable between you and DH depends a lot on how he feels about the split? In some ways I think that's more important than any of the practical difficulties you mentioned. I think a lot of the anger and resentment comes about when it's not completely mutual, or someone feels they've lost power in some way? How does he feel about his own parents divorce?

Like proud, I can see why some divorcing parents tell themselves and everyone else that the kids are 'fine'. But my parents split too when I was very young, and although they were amicable it has affected me profoundly over the years. I wish they had made different choices about how to manage co-parenting. Also had a step-dad who I hated. But then who knows what might have happened had my parents stayed together? Given the way my dad was treating my mum, it might have been even more disastrous for me.

I think the point is that many of us have fewer choices than we would like, and like many parents it sounds like foggy is between a rock and a hard place ...

But in terms of divorcing well, I think it's good to focus on practical issues that you can actually do something about. Too often people either go into blind denial, or get horribly hung up on vague and unspecified notions of psychological damage.

I read this great book which reports on a longitudinal study of divorce. Whilst it's very dispassionate it describes how divorce affects kids in practical ways (e.g. spending too long away from one or other parent, step-parent conflict, missing friends/activities, impoverished parents, etc). It made me realise how many shared custody arrangements are based around the adults' needs rather than childrens'. Also that the drama between adults sometimes carries on even beyond the divorce ...

I think this is one of the hardest conflicts anyone has to deal with - easy answers and judgements are totally misplaced. Good luck foggy.

Only going by my own experience: I grew up with my parents arguing, stony silences (once didn't speak to each other for a month. Not one word), never seeing them being affectionate with each other. I constantly wondered why other people's parents kissed and laughed together. It made me feel like there was something wrong with me. Kids are very self-centred - they believe everything is to do with them. I thought my parents were arguing because of me, because there was something horribly wrong with me.

My parents still don't get on, but still carry on living together, because they don't know what else to do. It is heart-breaking for me.

My brother seems to have come out of it ok, he doesn't remember having a bad childhood. I, on the other hand, have got a ton of mental health problems, do badly in relationships and no self-esteem. I don't think that's solely to do with my parents' relationship, but I know a lot of it is because of it.

Kids pick up on stuff, they will be able to see that you're not getting on. On the other hand, as you say, you don't want to miss weekends with them and so on. I think communication is key here, I think you need to talk to them and your husband a lot.

When I was a teenager, my parents were seriously contemplating a divorce, but did not divorce because my dad didn?t have anywhere to go, and there was no point to divorce and live in the same flat. Their relationship gradually improved and now, 15 years on, they get along well and have forgotten that once they wanted to divorce. I cannot imagine what my life would have been if they did divorce, but so happy now that they are together.
I will advocate ?saving marriage for the sake of kids?. From my experience (my first marriage broke up, no children), no one is perfect and too often we expect that everything (and everyone) has to be perfect. For some reason, people expect that they have to be happy all the time, but life is never rosy like that. Maybe my marriage is far from ideal, but as long as it is not nerve-wracking and not too emotionally damaging, I will stay in it for the sake of our children, until I cannot bear it anymore. I acknowledge that I am emotionally separated from my husband, but so I am able to make myself happy as an individual, and that keeps me sane.
I don?t like this consuming culture these days. People just throw marriage away like an old New Look cardigan, because it is not ideal anymore. And I also think, that most of us put too much of emphasis on feelings. Marriage used to be much more practical in old times ? cooperation, doing things together, splitting expenses, a partner in bed etc. I sometimes think, that this constant analysing ?how do I feel?? does not lead anywhere. Our generation just created such a big market for counselling, divorce lawyers, second homes, etc. I think, if we perceived everything in a simplier manner, we would be so much happier.
Obviously, abuse and violence in the family is out of question.
I am risking to be hugely unpopular here?.

I think there is some truth in what confused said just as there is some truth in saying that unhappy parents don't make happy children so it's better to get divorced.

As far as the children are concerned, I think that the answer lies in how they experience the situation.
So if mum and dad are arguing all the time, taking the dcs into the arguments, perhaps one partner is angry most of the time because of the situation and then will be unnecesseraly angry/shouty with the dcs etc... then staying for the dcs isn't going to be a viable option.
If both partners can manage to have a working relationship as co-parents and are willing to both make an effort, then perhaps this is something to consider.
A counsellor once told me that it is impossible to fully protect our dcs from suffering (even though most parents would do their outmost to avoid that). Our job as parents is to support them through these difficult times the best that we can. So for the children pov, it is about looking at them and trying to read what sort of consequences the unhappy marriage has on them. Some children will tell one of their parents, most will be acting in a different way. One of mine started to get headaches and tummy pains due to stress (which prob was mostly our stress isywim). Once you know the consequence of staying in that relationship on your dcs, it can be easier to decide if divorce is the best for them.

But this all about the impact of divorce on the dcs and whether this would be the best choice/ the less disruptive thing to do for them.
I think you also have to consider what it means to you too and whether the problems you currently have are really unsolveable or not. And also whether you still 'love' that person ie do you trust, respect your partner even though you don't like living with them atm.
Personnally I don't think that being a martyr and surrending all your needs/rights is part off a mother's job description.

my opinion - and i can see there are points both ways - is that if all parties can try and be happy, in calm environments, that must be best. my DS was also under a year, and has no recollection of us being together, and happyily spends time with each of us.

have seen friend's parents 'wait til the kids leave school', this can leave a lot of guilt/unhappiness.

good luck