Different domestic standards

[greentomato]

My dh thinks he is the ultimte new man. And when it comes to childcare and entertaining the kids indeed he is, no fault there. But, in a similar vein to the other thread, it is the housework where the battle starts.

A bit of background - when we first moved in together (many moons ago) he didn't like it if I asked him to do something - like take the rubbish out or tidy up his shoes. In fact he went as far as to say that I had no right to ask him to do things. I did not agree and continued to do so as other wise stuff just did not get done.

Move forward 12 years: If I ask him to do something, he more often than not replies 'I'll try' or 'If I remember' or grunts. I am aware that underlying all this is that he doesn't want me to ask at all. He says that the reason he responds in this way is that he does often forget and then I get cross with him. I admit that if I have asked him to do something repeatedly and he doesn't do it then I do express my displeasure!

He has said in the past that he thinks me asking for things to get done is 'controlling' behaviour.

If I ask him to do something that he can't do immediately I get the same response. He says that I should only ask him to do things when he is immediately available to do them or he will forget. I refused as I felt that this was an additional task for me - to monitor dh all day to wait for the right opportunity to ask him to do something!

We also have the standards issue - he says he doesn't care if the house is a tip and doesn't see it. So therefore does little tidying up - unless asked - see above - he doesn't like this. So we have a situation where if I don't ask things don't get done - but if I do ask then he gets the hump (but pretends he hasn't). It is all rather exhausting - We have a had a number of calm discussions about all this recently with me explaining that I need more housework support from him (particularly as I have started work recently and the house is descending into squalor). Re: the squalor comment I get 'no it's not' as a response - it really is a tip. But any additional help has not been particularly forthcoming.

Sorry this is getting long. How do a respond to the 'the house isn't a tip and I don't care if it is' comments from him? It's really getting me down. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

get a cleaner as you now working as well

Hi greentomato

I lived with one of these "new men" for 25 years until it all got too much. I think it is such a cliche that it must be a real gender difference although I wouldn't usually subscribe to that idea.

He could be genuinely oblivious of what needs doing, in which case you could leave the bathroom or wherever till it is so bad he does notice (I always cracked first) or do it yourself and get resentful it is all down to you again.

Or he may be a bit passive aggressive going along with your suggestions "yes dear" then doing nothing because he actually doesn't really believe it is his job to do whatever despite his New Man credentials.

If I had my time again I would have negotiated some jobs that were "his" and that needed doing regularly. My DH was in charge of wheely bins and compost bucket and cleaning out chickens, but not much else.

Try getting his cooperation by explaining the link between husbands that pull their weight around the house and a rich and fulfilling sex life! That might encourage him

And to your last question: No you are not this is REALLY IMPORTANT and you need to sort it out.

as a man, I would suggest

above all remember that, while different standards may be part of the explanation, the main reason he doesn't do it is if he leaves it, you do.

but given that I'd suggest

• a stream of requests and tasks isn't the best way to manage anyone, no one likes to be on the receiving end of that. Also it perpetuates the idea that the housework is actually your responsibility, and his role is only to be 'helping'. Indeed, try not to use the word 'help' at all
• can you agree some ongoing jobs that are his, which he can then manage for himself. eg in stubbornhousehold I do the breakfast on mon-wed (the days mrs stubborn works) I mow the lawn. etc.
• do get a cleaner if you both work.
• in order for you to do less: focus on personal services. Do you do his washing, iron his shirts, buy his deodorant, pick up his pants from floor? do you even clean up his poo from the toilet. Stop all of those things at least.
• Only resume personal as part of a proper share out of jobs (not tasks) 'OK I will take on all the clothes washing if you do the Ocado ordering. whatever'

when he is doing a function you are really, really really, going to have to resist the tempation to tell him he is doing it wrong. EVEN (and this is very, very important) even if HE IS doing it wrong.

12 years ago when you had a house you probably made all sorts of mistakes and inneficient processes as you learned how best to do it. But it's best learned for yourself. Also there is more than one way to cook a plate of scrambled eggs.

I've said this on many a thread. Get him to read Wifework. It's just what you both need from the sounds of it.

I've given up with housework now - having spent hours cleaning the house and then about 5 mins admiring my handiwork I turned into a screaming banshee if my 3 ds's and dh then trampled in and proceeded a) to completely not notice the house was clean and b) to carry on making a mess.

I put my foot down and said to DH we have a cleaner before I completely lose my rag. Now since I don't do as much housework I'm less stressed about it staying clean. Mind you we can only have her once a fortnight so I do clean up in between (especially bathrooms, which are yukky sometimes) but manage not to get so worked up.

I've stopped ironing for DH regularly, but will do so on occasion - now he doesn't expect me to do it, I'm happier to do it. When I felt it was expected I was really resentful.

I do know that some of this was/is my fault -when he did do it, it was wrong or took too long. After one blowout when he pointed this out to me I conceded that maybe I was a little controlling.....so when he does stuff I don't criticise (well not to his face), and if I'm not happy I wait until he's out to do it my way!

Tis a tricky one, but you need clear boundaries as to what's his and what's your jobs, and try not to give in...good luck

Have had this problem myself , i really wouldnt put up with it again, and i dont think its about housework at all .

As someone else said , id stop doing things for him , as of today.

In our house it is "If it bothers you that much do it yourself." Hence DH cleans floors and kitchen, I clean loos and laundry. I would never dream of telling DH to do anything, because:

A) I am not his mother
B) He is not my child

Although his mum was a bit surprised when on commenting on the state of my fridge, she was handed a cloth and some detergent. Nowadays she just does it, she's got with the programme.

No resentment at all.

Thanks for your comments.

Sadly can't afford a cleaner at the moment. It would solve a lot, we have had one before and it was great.

I think allocating jobs is a good idea. Will try that.

I really don't criticise him if he 'does something wrong'. Honest!

I haven't ironed his clothes for years - they are his clothes he can do it (cue: him buying a delightful range of easycare shirts! His choice.)

KatieScarlett: Unfortunately operating that policy in this house would mean that dh would do absolutely nothing at all - not a division of labour I am happy with because I am not his mother and he is not my child.

Dignified - I don't think it's about housework really either. His mother did absolutely everything for her sons and husband and this is the model he has grown up with. Intellectually he is all for equality but I think sub-consciously he is programmed otherwise. Also, as someone else said, I think he does have passive aggressive tendencies. He 'forgets' an awful lot, refuses to talk about anything that might be remotely confrontational by walking out of the room and then when I am raging with frustration turns round and says - you get so angry.

I've had the different domestic standards argument on here before.

But I will NOT defend anyone who claims that asking someone to do something is controlling.

It absolutely isn't.

It is impossible to run a house jointly unless you can talk about what needs to be done and agree who is going to do it.

At the most basic level this often comes down to: "could you pick up the toys while I start dinner?" or similar.

He's being a twat and you can't buy your way out of that problem with a cleaner.

Tell him to fuck off with his controlling and take control of his life by pulling his weight.

I always think that if you have decided on a division of labour then there is no room for argument. That is, of course, if the division of labour is agreed between you. If the person doesn't think they have to do anything then that is a different kettle of fish.

All this stuff about "could you pick up the toys while I start dinner, or the clothes need folding and the dinner needs starting, which do you want to do? are in my opinion just not getting to the root of the problem and I can see why it would be very annoying to hear that from someone all the time.

If you know what your jobs are you can just get on with them and no one has to even talk about such boring stuff :)

While you are sitting down discussing who should do what jobs, then it will be clear what their thoughts are about it all. Which might then mean a trip to relate!

There's no problem to get to the root of other than the unchanging problem that being alive creates work.

Who the fuck in any kind of civilised adult relationship needs to SIT DOWN and discuss who does what jobs?

But somehow figuring it out on the fly is BORING?

WTFF?

You can a billion conversations about the principles of division of labour but it is an utter nonsense to think that you can then never, ever mention the chores again because it is too boring (read - beneath you).

Imagine taking that approach at work with your colleagues - "stop mentioning the work there is to do, I know what my job is and I will do it at my own convenience"

You know that that approach is called?

Work to rule.

It's a form of industrial action.

You can have your pay docked for it.

Pulling that kind of shit at home is either massively passive aggressive or a sign of being a lazy entitled bastard.

Sorry, at a bit of loss here JumpingUp - the division of labour in our house is not boring to me at all - the labour, however, is.

Also: "All this stuff about "could you pick up the toys while I start dinner, or the clothes need folding and the dinner needs starting, which do you want to do? are in my opinion just not getting to the root of the problem and I can see why it would be very annoying to hear that from someone all the time."

• These jobs need to be done - why the hell should I always be the one to do them? Should I just shut up and do the necessary jobs lest I annoy my dh for asking him to get involved? Or, god forbid, bore him by mentioning them?

I have told my DH that I could not possibly contemplate any sex whatsoever in a house that was not clean. occasionally he will help out.

You cant let him monopolise the fun time with the DCs.You need to have funtime with them too.

Men respond well to visual stimuli so what I'd do is create a chart/list/diagram and put it up in a prominant place in the house. When a room is clean and tidy to your standards take photos of it from different angles. Put these up along with very specific instructions of what needs done. eg 'wipe abc surface with xyz cloth soaked in def cleaning product until it looks like photo g'. Avoid words like 'clean' or 'tidy'- they are to vague. Give timescales for how long you expect each task should take him, and set deadlines for when they need to be done by. Leave this with him while you take the DCs out for the day.

After a few weeks/months you can dispense with the chart as it will be second nature to him.

If he is unappreciative of what you do you can create daily before and after pictures and lists with minute details of exactly what you have done (include thinking and emotional work).

Write it in biro on his hands if he thinks he might forget:

"Ocado shop" "hang out washing" "object to planning application" "clean bathroom".

Then he can do those things when he finds time.

His memory might miraculously improve and/or he might get himself a notepad and not rely on you to be his mobile clipboard.

Actually, I agree with earlier posters that those jobs should not be YOUR responsibility to distribute and for him to "help" with. They are shared responsibilities but I don't know how you overcome that one, although referring to it as him "doing his fair share" rather than "helping" might be a start.

I think you've got to have a bit of both - JumpingUp and spidooky are both right.

1: have a list of jobs that need doing, and the frequency at which they need doing.
2: each person ticks and marks the jobs when they have been done
3: other general tidying and cleaning is done when it is needed, by whoever is the least busy at the time.

eg:
list :
cleaning toilet: daily tick tuesday DH tick wednesday DW etc
changing beds: fortnightly tick 14/11 DH tick 28/11 DW etc
hoovering upstairs: weekly tick 12/11 DH tick 19/11 DW
ad hoc - washing pots - you can take turns to wash pots - whoever cooked doesn't wash the pots.
whoever cooks is also responsible for laying table, but after food is eaten, the other one clears table, wipes table and washes pots.

(i mean that you should have the list pinned up on the kitchen notice board, and replaced every month)

Rotas and shit don't work.

This isn't about housework. I know this, I'm living it.

There is a head-shaped dent on every brick wall in my house, and my house is a fecking tip.

I reiterate, it's not about housework.

I think you are confusing him with someone who gives a damn. Have been here myself.

This has been an issue since we first moved in together. When I failed to get anywhere initially, I lowered my standards and we both ran round like headless chickens for 2 hours before visitors arrived (very very low standards obviously, as it was a 1 bed flat!). Once DCs started arriving, this strategy didn't work anymore as when do you get an uninterupted block of time just when you need it? I very quickly realised that he saw all DSs stuff as 'mine'.

Since then I have tried:

Doing nothing. Result, very untidy house, embarrassed to let anyone in. Feel it reflects on me even if it shouldn't.

Talking. The 'I'm not happy' approach, the 'how can we sort it out' approach, the 'we need to look at the house as a business' approach, the 'I'm fucking not happy' approach, the 'what the bloody hell are we going to do about this' approach, the 'these are the jobs to be done, how shall we share them out' approach. You name it, I tried it. Result, no change.

Cleaner. But guess who had to organise that?

Arguments he's used include: you mind more (actually untrue), I don't see it (ditto), I don't know what to do, I don't like doing it (really , well I just luurve cleaning myself, not), you do it so much better etc etc. The really shocking thing is that I always said my DCs would do more than I did as I think it's important to contribute but of course they don't as his behaviour reinforces the sense that it's 'my job'.

I have been a SAHM for lots of this time, so I haven't even been looking for shared responsibility, just the sense that we're in it together.

Quite shocked that it has taken me 45 years to realise that actions speak louder than words.

As I said on another thread:

Reasonable people act reasonably, listen if you are unhappy and try to change things for the good of everyone.

Unreasonable people don't.

I wish I'd seen this as the issue it really was right back at the beginning but then I thought it seemed a silly thing to be unable to sort out.

He's now an ex and this, on some level, lay at the root of if all - his sense of entitlement, superiority, sense that his needs were more important than mine and that I was there for his benefit.

Since he left, I have been shocked by how much easier it is to keep the house clean and tidy. The DCs are now helping more though have to be retrained after spending time with him. His house is awful, to the point that even the DCs comment but that is, after all, his choice.

I agree , its really not tawdry .

Greentomatoe , does he walk out of the room when others are trying to talk to him , ie his boss , ect , or does he save this sort of behaviour just for you ? This is known as stonewalling , a refusal to discuss things , listen to how you feel ect . It probably sounds extreme but just on its own its a form of emotional abuse .

The person whos desperateley trying to communicate how they feel understandably gets frustrated and are then accused of being aggresive or whatever. Its actually a set up i think.

I spent years on this, and i wouldnt , ever again. If im upset about housework , or joe bloggs down the road or anything , i expect my partner to listen . This walking away when your talking is outrageous - thats how important you and your feelings are , he doesnt want to listen.

I would like to thank you for this thread. My OH and I had a falling out yesterday after I ended up cleaning at 6am because he had failed to do it (I'd decided that I was sick of nagging so didn't ask him to). I cleaned up and then went out leaving this thread open on my computer. I think he had a read of it before leaving for work and came home that evening saying he was "very sorry for being a messy pig and will do more without being told in future". Actions speak louder than words but at least he recognises that it isn't fair to leave it to me. He also suggest that since we work opposite hours and rarely eat together that we operate a "you use it - you clean it policy", he obviously hasn't noticed I've been doing that for months so I agreed although I question how that will work when baby arrives.

I think I still might up telling him to do something but I often find the best way to get anything done with him is to leave him a list of no more than 3 things to do per day and never in list form. This might not sound like a lot but in all fairness I probably don't do more than 3 things a day (on a work day) myself either so I won't ask of him what I wouldn't do myself.

for example
Could you please wash up, hoover the kitchen rug and clean the front room before you go to work. Thanks xx
or
Could you please change the litter trays and take the rubbish out, thanks xx

But it does annoy me to have to do this because as many have said before it implies that it is my job and he's just helping. There has to be a bit of give and take though, for instance I have asked him to change the oil and filters in my car tomorrow which is going to take him a while which he has agreed to with no fuss so I will not be nagging if he hasn't done a great deal in the house.

Greentomatoe you've done well putting up with it this long, I would try the notes thing as he claims he "forgets" but I suppose as frustrating as it is some men just don't take the initiative and need direction - if he'll do it then maybe be grateful for that, it all depends how the other aspects of your relationship are. Forgiving him his little imperfections (however annoying) is all part of the package.

Can I hijack and ask for comments on my similar post of boring housework?

One suggestion I read on a similar thread in the past was that you both sit down and write a list of all the things that need doing for your house / family, including tasks around insurance, bill paying etc as well as housework, plus an estimate of how long it takes, plus how often they need to be done.

The person who suggested it said that often the other partner in the relationship either thinks they are doing a lot that goes unnoticed and so thinks isn't fair that they're nagged, or they sometimes genuinely are doing tasks that go unnoticed.

GrendelsMum - tried that one too. Just showed up even more starkly just how little he was doing! By the end, the only 2 jobs he was fully responsible was putting the bins out and cutting the grass (which often got left - we even got a gardener at one point so he didn't even have to do that!). That said, it did show ME just how little HE was doing.

Also, I think the issue is not really the work exactly, more the sense of it being a shared responsibility. Sharing responsibility doesn't mean each doing half, but it does mean each person being prepared to take some ownership of the problem.

Oh dear.

What did he say when he realised how little he was doing?

By the way, is the house really a tip? Have you tried asking other people to give you their honest opinion?