Downstairs bathroom off kitchen

[siluria]

Hi all. Apologies for long post!

My husband and I bought a house last year which we love - it's the middle of three Victorian houses that used to be two-up two-downs before they had extensions. Downstairs it has a really big open plan living room/dining room, an extension with a 15 x 9 foot kitchen in it, a little lobby with a door to the garden (there's also a door to the garden from the living room), and a small (4 x 6) downstairs loo/utility room.

The first floor used to have just two double bedrooms in it - front and back. But the back bedroom (which would be about 13 x 12) has been converted into a large bathroom and a landing area with the boiler in it and bookshelves. There's now also a fully-kitted out loft-conversion with proper staircase etc, and that room (which is our bedroom) is 17' x 12'. The front bedroom, also 13 x 12, is the same as it has always been, I guess. So we have two bedrooms and an upstairs bathroom + landing.

My husband has been offered his absolute dream job much closer to London, where I already work (I commute there - 1.5 hour commute each way and we have a 20-month-old DD and another baby on the way). There's no way he can pass this up as the opportunity just won't come around again. We can't rent the house (we'd lose £400 a month on the mortgage alone) and have 0% equity. When we were planning on staying, we always wanted to convert the house to 3 bedrooms, but had complicated renovation plans which would have been expensive and time-consuming.

So we have a quicker plan now for adding equity: simply to turn the downstairs loo/utility AND the little lobby area into a bathroom which would come directly off the kitchen (apparently it used to be this way - this would make the bathroom 8x6). And take out the upstairs bathroom, knock down the partition wall between it and the landing area, and thereby reinstate the lost bedroom. This would mean we had 3 double bedrooms and a downstairs bathroom off the kitchen. This is by far the cheapest option and we think it would add at least £20k to the value of the house, meaning we could sell, cover moving costs, and have a small sum left over to bank and begin saving for a new deposit. (We'll go into rented.)

My question is: does this sound like a sensible trade-off? All the rooms will be really good sizes, and I know downstairs bathrooms are pretty common in Victorian terraces of this layout, but downstairs bathrooms off the kitchen - how much of a drawback would that be to you if you loved everything else about a house? It's possible we could leave a toilet/sink ensuite in the back bedroom - would that make a difference?

[Indith]

We have a downstairs bathroom, I find it quite practical with children as can shove them in the bath and get on with cooking/washing up etc instead of hanging around upstairs. Most people don't like them though, as you may have gathered!

[siluria]

And of course all this depends on us selling it at all, in a sluggish market ...

Risks every which way!

[siluria]

Thanks impecunious - that's what I thought. Definitely need local advice (and will be) but after this thread my sense is that round here it wouldn't be that great - the town I live in has a really eclectic mix of properties - our road has Tudor, Georgian, Victorian, 1920s, 1960s, and new builds on it! So people would have a wider range of options than they would in an area which was all Victorian terraces. Glad you think that I've hit upon a more sensible option!

arbitrary you're totally right - we can't really work it all out until we have a better idea of the costs and the potential added value (and we will definitely try to imagine it costing more than we predict and the house getting a bit lower than the lowest valuation, just to be on the safe side). At least we have people coming now - 3 agents and only one plumber (but we'll get more) who can help us get an indication of this.

[impecuniousmarmoset]

Ah sorry I should rtt before posting! Yes that sounds much more sensible.

[ArbitraryUsername]

Impecunious: I think the plan is now to redesign the upstairs to produce a smaller bathroom and a single bedroom (rather than a big bathroom and unnecessarily spacious landing), and leave the downstairs toilet (or possibly put a shower in there, to make a second bathroom). So the OP would have a 3 bedroom house with an upstairs bathroom and downstairs loo/shower room. This would probably make a difference even in Victorian terrace land.

[impecuniousmarmoset]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say it depends on the housing market in your area. Round where I live, which is 95% victorian terraces, downstairs bathrooms are totally the norm and wouldn't put buyers off simply because there are so few houses with upstairs bathrooms.

Having said that, I'm still not sure whether a 3-bed with downstairs bathroom goes for much more money than a 2-bed with upstairs bathroom. The question is more how many buyers are available for each kind of property. Most families I know would opt for the 3-bed with downstairs bathroom, so round here that might be the better option in terms of finding buyers. But as you've seen here, outside victorian-terrace-land, most people are horrified by the idea of downstairs bathrooms, so you really need to take local advice.

[ArbitraryUsername]

Also, remember that putting a new bathroom in a house you're living in is a pain in the arse. Factor the inconvenience into your calculations. It wouldn't be worth it if the overall difference was only £1k, IMO.

[ArbitraryUsername]

You don't need to add £20k of value though. You just need to make sure that you get more than the mortgage and cover the costs of selling presumably. Although, it's worth considering whether it would be more cost effective to just use the money you have to cover your negative equity and costs.

[siluria]

Thanks frilly and arbitrary - you're right about the Rightmove searches. We were only searching for 3-bed houses too, and only stumbled on our house by accident (in fact, at first we put an offer in on a 3 bed house round the corner which we hated by comparison, but we did it because it had three bedrooms). So I think that's right. Definitely no downstairs bathroom, as I said. Well, depending on costs we might put a shower in our downstairs loo, as there's room to do it, but it would definitely be a second bathroom and not the first.

Was surprised at the unanimous strength of feeling about downstairs bathrooms but VERY glad I posted and realised it was time to re-consider. We have a plumber friend coming to look at it tomorrow, after the estate agents have been. He'll charge us cost price for the materials and give us a good dea on labour too (we will owe him a lot of drinks and dinners!). If it isn't going to cost too much, and if the estate agents say it will add enough value (okay, so my £20k estimate was probably a bit ambitious!), then my dad (ex-carpenter) and step-dad (electrician) will come and finish the jobs off for us, and my mum (constant house renovator) will help us do the decorating as economically as possible. Need to do a lot of sums before we go ahead, as others have said, but with all this help on our side we are hopefully in a good position.

[ArbitraryUsername]

I'd say that a house with 2 double bedrooms and a single would be worth more than a house with 2 bedrooms, a big bathroom and a big fancy landing. Simply because it would be a 3 bedroom house. I agree that no one wants a giant landing in a 2 bed terrace.

[frillyflower]

We have just bought a 2 bed Victorian terrace. The selling point for us was that the bathroom was upstairs.

As others have said I wouldn't consider the bathroom off the kitchen option.

I think you are going to make your house harder to sell at the price you want.

[MrsJamin]

I think you should put another bedroom in. Most people looking for a family home will put criteria into rightmove of 3+ bedrooms- meaning they wouldn't come across yours at all.

[siluria]

Thanks everyone - okay, here's to clarify.

1. We won't be buying in London. We will be renting. So we don't need enough for a deposit. We just need to be able to sell the house and cover costs. We can do the work reasonably cheaply as we have tradesmen in our close family who are willing to help.
   

1. We didn't get a 102% mortgage last year - sorry for confusion. We got a 100% mortgage on a different property in 2007, when we were 25 and thought it really necessary to get on the property ladder. A week later, the value of that house plummeted. Last year our bank allowed us to transfer the negative equity onto a different property - effectively we ported the mortgage across. Quite a few banks are willing to do this now if you have excellent credit histories and a good history with the bank, especially if you have good reasons for moving (we had had a baby and had much higher incomes than we had in 2007).
   

1. We don't have a high mortgage rate - we're on SVR. But if we rent the property out, we will be put on a high mortgage rate because of no equity/higher risks to the bank. Fair enough.
   

1. We're not just trying to second guess the market. Adding a third bedroom to a family house opens up the property to a much wider market of people who wouldn't even consider a 2-bedroom house. Similar properties round here are on the market for anything between £210k and £250k - a price not achievable by anything but the most luxury 2-beds. We're not aiming for anywhere near the top end. The bottom end would be fine. Not only that, but the house is QUITE LARGE and has A LOT OF WASTED SPACE IN IT. WE ARE THINKING ABOUT PUTTING A BEDROOM WHERE THERE WAS A BEDROOM BEFORE. Does anybody really want a ten foot landing in a two-bedroom house? I can't imagine anybody would be sad to have lost that! We are checking this with estate agents because they are the only available source of information on this - if three estate agents do say they'll market it for £210-15k and have experience of getting close to that for houses with three bedrooms in this area and of a similar type, then we'll have to trust them since they're the only people who do that for a living.
   

1. We can't extend, except to the side of the kitchen, because of the layout vis-a-vis the houses next door. There is no way around this.
   

1. ENOUGH ALREADY about the downstairs bathroom!!! I get the message!!! There will be no downstairs bathroom without the upstairs bathroom!

[LillianGish]

I can't see how unless you physically enlarge the house you can add a huge amount of value to it in such a short time. You've said yourself that basically it is a two up two down with an extension and a loft conversion so that's what you are selling however you configure the rooms - it might sell more quickly with one configuration than another depending on who is house hunting at the time, but I can't see how it will make a massive difference to the value.

[jammybean]

I would put it on the market as it is, you have less to lose. Get it re-valued, it may have increased in value since you purchased.

If you can add value by spending as little as possible that would be the best possible solution. Do you have a large garden? As said before, selling with planning approval for a double height extension to the rear could be another option.

[PureQuintessence]

She could perhaps put the cash she has for the work she plans into the mortgage? She would have to speak to a mortgage adviser or her bank to find out if this is even possible, not something either of us could decide, I reckon.
It is just another suggestion along with all other suggestions.

[pooka]

We have a sunpipe in our internal shower room. It's amazing!

But if you are developing the property a la property ladder, I don't think you are likely to recoup the cost of the unit and installation. My brother lives in a flat with internal bathroom (beautiful 1940s block, original layout) and gets by just fine with clever lighting.

[LillianGish]

I agree jammybean. You are trying to second guess what a buyer might want which is impossible - even for an estate agent I dare say, it just depends who comes along. My feeling would be you bought the house as it is not long ago, so presumably it appealed to you. Whoever buys it will have their own ideas of what they prefer - two small bathrooms, bathroom downstairs, leave it as it is or the expensive and complicate conversion plan you had in mind - I can't see the point throwing more money at it when the whole point is that you are already out of pocket. Why don't you put it on the market and see who bites?

[MooncupGoddess]

With no equity though I can't see what other mortgage options she has. Surely she'd need at least 20% deposit to convert to a buy to let. Presumably she has a high mortgate rate for the same reason... lenders are no longer naive about the risks of negative equity.

[pooka]

I'd turn the back bedroom into a single and use the remaining space for a smaller bathroom.

So you seem to be saying that the bedroom would have been 13x12. In which case, a 13x7 bedroom and a 13x5 bathroom, incorporating boiler.

I would not look at a house with downstairs bathroom off kitchen.

[PureQuintessence]

I read the op. OP however does not specify if she has investigated other mortgage options. On different terms, the rent might cover the repayments. Which means Op could keep her house, and rent in London, or buy in London. Them getting another mortgage for themselves should be fine, as the current mortgage, if changed to buy to let on a tenanted property would not be based on their salaries but on rental yield.

[ILikeBirds]

Interest only buy to let with no equity is unlikely but then I would have said the same about the current mortgage ltv ratio

[MooncupGoddess]

In her OP she says 'We can't rent the house (we'd lose £400 a month on the mortgage alone) and have 0% equity.'

[PureQuintessence]

I still worry that you are about to spend a lot of money that you wont recuperate.

You have a good reason to sell though, your husband has been offered a job in London.

However, would it not be a better idea to see if you can change your mortgage to an interest only buy to let mortgage, and get tenants in?

£195 k wont get you much in London at all.

[MooncupGoddess]

Your new plan sounds more sensible, though £20k increase in value is rather ambitious.

I'm surprised you managed to get a 102% mortgage last year... I thought they were very much things of the past.