Arrgh, buggered up application, can I decline my 1st choice?

[aggadoo]

I have been 'successful' in securing a place for my child at my 1st choice school.....I only put it as 1st choice because it's the nearest. However, I have just discovered that the school I really wanted (which I put 2nd because it's slightly further away, very oversubscribed and I was told it was unlikely DC would get in cause of the distance) has announced it will have a 'bulge class' for DC's intake year. He definitely would have got in if I'd put it first. & School apparently did not know they would be adding another class before application forms went in.
Does anyone know if I can apply to go on the waiting list for this school, even though I got my first choice?

[Jetbaby]

You're not in Essex are you aggadoo? Only a friend of mine has been placed on a "secondary" waiting list for 3 schools as they weren't on her original application form.

[admission]

PRH is right this is a clear breach of the regulations. Write back and insist that they place you on the waiting list for this school.

This officer is confused. They are quoting what would arise if you made a decision to alter your preferences in the time period between the initial cut off date for applications and the initial allocation of places. You did not apply late, you have made a decision to appeal for a place at another school after the allocations had been made. Once the initial allocation date has passed everybody is equal on the waiting list and it should be in admission criteria order.

This is incredibly worrying that such a basic error is being made.

[prh47bridge]

Don't give up. Email back and point out that what they have said about waiting lists is a clear breach of paragraph 3.19 of the School Admissions Code which says, "Waiting lists must be clear, fair and objective and must not give priority to children based on the date either their application was received or their name was added to the list". They CANNOT put you at the bottom of the waiting list simply because you applied late. The Admissions Code has the force of law so they are breaking the law.

This is basic stuff. If they can't get this right it makes me wonder how much else they are getting wrong in the admissions process.

If you've got the stomach for it I think this one may end up going to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[aggadoo]

As I thought -
In an email from the LA's primary admissions officer :
"You will need to write to us to say you want to make a late application for the school and wish to go on the waiting list. As a late applicant, however, your childs name will be after all the on-time applicants"

So it will be below those on time applicants who have requested to go on the waiting list (which is most likely to be those who put it 1st/2nd and didn't get in the first round - its a really popular school and I know loads will have put it as a first choice)
I've accepted the offer given to me and am just having to get used to the idea as I am not holding out any hope now...but will still go on the list, just in case ! (ever the optimist!)
Thanks for all the advice.

[admission]

Sorry but lets make this simple for aggadoo as she is getting conflicting advice here. I base my comments on chairing and sitting on admission appeal panels for 3 local authorities over the last 5 years.

1. accept the offer you have been given, as this protects the place and means that you know you have a school place for September.
   
   
2. ask the LA to confirm by email that you are on the waiting list for the school that you now want and ask them to confirm your position on the waiting list. They must reply to this and they cannot stop you being on this waiting list.
   
   
3. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about how and when the bulge class was filled. The LA should have agreed to have a bulge class before the initial allocations were made. As such instead of the quoted number of places being offered there would have been 30 more. Aggadoo would not have been offered a place as her preference form stood as she was given her first preference. Most of what has been posted by Aggadoo suggests this is exactly what did happen.
   
   
4. Now that the initial places have been offered any places rejected will be filled from the waiting list, which Aggadoo will be on and hopefully with time get a place.
   
   
5. If the bulge class was not filled as above then this raises all sorts of questions of who should have been given the places but this can only be sorted out at appeal. Without knowing all the detail it is impossible to offer a sensible opinion.

[prh47bridge]

I would strongly advise against rejecting the first choice school to go on the waiting list for the second choice.

You can go on the waiting list for your second choice whilst retaining the first choice place. Not having a place won't affect your position on the waiting list.

Your place at your first choice school would be offered to another child when you rejected it so if you didn't get into your second choice you wouldn't have a place anywhere. It is unlikely that you would be able to get back in to your first choice.

[SE13Mummy]

I've checked the Lewisham booklet for 2010/11 entry and there is no mention of the possibility of bulge classes even though there are publically available documents suggesting that somewhere in the region of 15 additional classes were likely to be needed for Sept 2010.... if your LA isn't Lewisham but the primary admissions booklet made no mention of the possibility that some schools would have bulge classes then it might be worth challenging the LA on that as it will have affected the decisions of lots of parents.

If you reject the first choice school and go on the waiting list for your second choice you may well end up with a place due to other people declining their places for similar reasons.

[prh47bridge]

NO. As I've tried to explain before, your position on the waiting list will NOT be below those who put this school as their 1st choice. The waiting list MUST be determined on admission criteria only.

The initial allocation will have been determined on admission criteria only. Some of the children admitted may have made this their 2nd or 3rd choice school. However, your child was not admitted because you got a place at your 1st choice school.

Once those children allocated places have accepted or refused them the waiting list operates on admission criteria only. The LA would be in breach of the Admissions Code if they put your child behind those who made the school their first choice or those who applied on time. The Admissions Code has the force of law so your LA MUST do what the Admissions Code says.

[aggadoo]

My LA's policy is just as RustyBear quotes - all late applications will be considered after all on time applications have been considered.
So as I understand it, the waiting list begins after the 'closing date' for acceptance/refusal for offers of places. So my position on the waiting list will be below those who put it as their 1st choice, then after that it will go on the criteria.
Bum!
Why oh why don't they announce that they 'might' be introducing bulge classes for the area, even without naming the schools, it would have given lots of parents like me the option to choose the school they want and not apply in a defeatist way!

[CarnationLilyLilyRose]

Good advice here already.

Rejecting your allocated school will not move you up the waiting list for the other school (it's held in order of the admission priorities, as mentioned already) and wouldn't help you win an appeal either.

[SE13Mummy]

aggadoo - are you in Lewisham? I know there are bulge classes being announced all over the place but also know from first-hand experience that the LA doesn't have an altogether sound understanding of the admissions code!

[prh47bridge]

RustyBear - The LA must have a policy for late applications. However, that policy cannot include putting the later applications lower on the waiting list.

As places have already been allocated the OP isn't changing her preference so that provision in the Admissions Code is irrelevant. She is applying for a different school. She is entitled to do that at any time. Getting a place at your 1st choice school does not stop you from subsequently applying for a place at any other school, including your 2nd choice.

The OP has been told that the bulge class has already been allocated and that her child will go on the waiting list. So you are correct on that point - non-late applicants have been considered first.

[Sushiqueen]

The school my dd is at has just been told they will have a bulge class this September (you are not in Kent are you?).

A couple of years ago they had half a form expansion for each year with the exception of Reception. This meant they had mixed years.

Because of that some of the parents at the school decided to move to the other school locally rather than stay in mixed years for later years. There were several children going to and fro the school but it soon settled down.

Don't give up, you may still get your place at the school. I know our reception team were great at keeping us informed of what was going on with the waiting lists. And it was purely done on th admissions criteria. It didn't matter when you went on the lost.

[RustyBear]

From our LA's Admissions leaflet "Any changes to existing applications received after January 22, 2010 will be dealt with as late and considered after the allocation." - presumably it could be argued that 'the allocation' is still ongoing, and therefore places in the bulge class will be offered first to 'non-late' applications.

[RustyBear]

So why does the code say that LAs must state their policy on late admissions if they are not allowed to have a different policy?

In any case, in the OP's situation we may not be talking about a 'waiting list' under the terms of the code -in our LA they don't establish an official waiting list until the admissions round has finished & it doesn't finish until allocated places have been accepted or refused and replacement places offered, which seems to be an ongoing process in this case.

The code also says that authorities should not allow applicants to change their preferences without good reason,so quoting the code might not actually be advantageous....

[prh47bridge]

RustyBear - The Admissions Code says, "Waiting lists must be clear, fair and objective and must not give priority to children based on the date either their application was received or their name was added to the list." (paragraph 3.19 - my emphasis)

The LA is not allowed to treat children on the waiting list differently according to when they applied. My answer to the OP stands - the LA is not allowed to put her child lower down the waiting list because she has applied late whatever it says in their admissions policy.

[RustyBear]

The Admissions code states that a place must not be refused solely because an application was received later than other applicants, but, as far as I can see,that's the only stipulation. Elsewhere it says that an authority's co-ordinated scheme must show how late applications are dealt with, and that late applications must be dealt with in accordance with that scheme. The implication of that is that different treatment of late applications is allowed, but must not be the sole reason for refusing a place.

[BleachedWhale]

My understanding was that the waiting list, and all on it, are treated exactly as they would be in the general admissions round - ie. in order of meeting criteria.

So, you could be first on the list because of your proximity to the school, be on the list for 6m and then if there is an application from someone who moves into the area 20m closer to the school than you do, they will get the first place that comes up.

You may well get a place: remember that no-one else will have known about the bulge class, either, and often parents to not accpet or confirm offers made to them. Also, other parents who put it 1st choice and didn't get a place, having been offered an alternative may decide not to go on the waiting list for the bulge class. Go on the list and don't despair! Places were coming up in DCs school well into the first week of term to fill places of 'no shows'.

[admission]

But Rustybear the waiting list must be in operation now, there has been an initial allocation and then an allocation for the bulge class. As soon as aggadoo asks to go on the waiting list then she will be put in criteria order defined by the admission arrangements. It will then become a waiting game to see if there are any further declines and hope that they are near the top of the waiting list.
The equal preference scheme works as per PRH's post, but this does not preclude you from changing your mind about schools at any time. You should not need to reapply you can ask to go on the waiting list of any school and it should simply happen. If the LA is suggesting anything else they are wrong and should be challenged about it.

[prh47bridge]

No, RustyBear, it is not ok. The School Admissions Code is quite clear on this point. Late applicants must not be unfairly disadvantaged.

[RustyBear]

It sounds as if the second application is being treated as a late application (which is what our authority do if you change your mind after the allocation date) - so it's not below the other applicants because you put it second (which would be illegal) but because it's a late application (which is OK as long as the admissions policy says that this is what will happen)

[prh47bridge]

The bit you have quoted is correct. The process involved in admissions is that they sort the applications for each school into priority order according to the admissions criteria. The admission number then determines who will get an offer. Some children at this stage will have places at 2 or more schools so they are only offered the place at their highest preference. So if your DC got places at both your 1st and 2nd preference schools, you would only have been allocated the place at your 1st preference.

This is why you are having to reapply. However, once you have done so your child has to be treated equally with every other child on the waiting list. The LA is not allowed to put you lower down the waiting list just because you have, in effect, applied late. That is specifically prohibited in the School Admissions Code.

[MerlinsBeard]

So they are just putting you at the bottom of the list as it is at the moment then?

[aggadoo]

In the info gave me it seems that there is a preferential order - they quote that 'offers which could have been made for any schools which you ranked lower were automatically withdrawn because a higher ranked preference has been offered'. (thus having to 're-apply' - perhaps this is what they mean will make me lower down on the list- a bit like applying late or mid-term?)
Also, the bulge class has already been allocated so its a waiting list for an already full year.
I am going to accept my 1st choice and go on the waiting list for 2nd choice school, see what happens, I am not hopeful though!
Thanks again ladies, I will look into this equal preference thing.

[admission]

Just to confirm what PRH has said, the LA cannot allocate places based on whether they were first preference. The method used is called equal preference for exactly that reason, all your three preferences have an equal status.

The LA must allocate to the bulge class on the waiting list for the school which must be in the admission criteria order. I would accept your 1st preference as your backstop and get your name on the waiting list with the LA and see what happens. The LA will have to do this fairly quickly as spaces will potentially come available as parents refuse places at the school from the original allocation and they will have to come off the waiting list. So I would get it done ASAP.

If you do not get allocated a place then ask why not. There is a distinct possibility that the LA will get snowed under with parents having heard the news, so i would not assume that you will get allocated a place. There may be a lot of parents who are nearer to the school than you who put down other preferences for exactly the same reason as you and will all now think they want a place.