is it possible to opt out of using computers within the state system?

[zebramummy]

i hate computers - i know, i am sitting here staring at one - however, i managed to avoid them until i started working in my twenties and yes, they were around prior to this mainly for wordprocessing, designing and games although email and internet had not really taken off. i have always felt privately disgusted by the two computers at ds' nursery and i strongly believe that they are completely uneccesary and have no place within an early years setting. i have heard about ICT at school and i am starting to get the feeling that it is a non-negotiable part of school-life. am i the only person who feels this way?

[zebramummy]

as the OP a v long time ago, i watched it, though lost concentration halfway through and started plotting my escape to Outer Mongolia! i never said computers should never be used, just that 3 and 4 year olds don't need them and even if usage if put off until adulthood, IME the learning curve is pretty flat up until the point that one enters the workplace so they could catch up on the essntials pretty painlessly within a short amount of time; having experienced a much richer childhood full of paper

[Feenie]

I'd like anyone who thinks that by withdrawing their child from any kind of ICT lesson (which, as many posters have pointed out, would exclude them from most of the curriculum) they are not disadvantaging their child at all to watch this video.

[RedJohn]

The Steiner school my son attends uses computers.

[ZZZenAgain]

I see thanks cazzy, makes sense.

I wish skidoodle you'd find the time to come back and explain why you say the education system here is the laughing stock of Europe. It's quite a strong statement and I'm just interested to hear why you think that. I'm not frothing at the mouth about it or anything. I just have not encountered lots of Europeans full of derision for our system IYSWIM (they may be too polite?)

In what ways is it so bad then?

[cazzybabs]

ZZZenAgain - the trouble is technology is moving so fast that some teachers trained before computers were in classrooms and even now what you learnt 2 years ago is outdated...even if you tried to national rules - how can you ensure schools have the same number of computers per head, software, other IT equipment....

ICT is a core subject but and so there are specific skills/objectives children need to meet set by the government but how schools achieve this is up to the school/teacher. At my school we embed ICT into the rest of the curriculum...same as literacy skills and numeracy skills

[ZZZenAgain]

anyway back to the thread topic, why is it so apparently random the way in which computers are used and the amount of time spent on them? Does it not form a clear part of primary school teacher trainer or are the guidelines for use a bit vague?

[ZZZenAgain]

I remember one teacher spending about a year calling me Lucia. "Err no Mr. Bell, I'm ZZZen". The weird thing was that Lucia was a dark-haired Irish girl (I was light blonde) with an Irish accent who sat right across on the other side of the room. I have no idea how he managed to confuse us an d the class was not really that big; yet he persisted with it for a year. I'm sure that's why I am bit weird.

[othersideofthefence]

zebramummy, I am shocked at the idea of a primary school teacher not knowing all the names of pupils in a class (although I have been known to call a few unfortunate pupils by an older sibling's name for the first few days)

As a class teacher (and I not an in easy school) I can't imagine it taking more than 2 days to know the names of a new class. In fact, the more challenging they are the faster I need to know names.
If they don't know names how can they teach and assess?
It saddens me that IT would be used in a pointless manner, but I suppose like all things it can be used well and badly.

[mrz]

No matter the size of the school there is absolutely no excuse for a teacher not knowing all the names of the children in the class
zebramummy schools were given large sums of money that could only be spent on ICT (even if the building was in desperate need of repair or there was no cash for books)

[zebramummy]

well i guess i am talking about a large london state primary here, not a small friendly village school. at our school the teachers admit to not really knowing the names of all the pupils in the class, the SEN and EAL stats are pretty dismal and tbh, the control over IT is simply low down on their list of priorities... that is where i come into it. i would love to be able to delegate this control to the staff but they cannot take it upon ts to ensure that computers are used sensibly. and before anyone asks, these schools seem to have state-of-the-art IT suites even though they are apparently cash strapped in every other area - many of the after school and lunchtime clubs are also IT-based and this element is contracted out too meaning even less uncertainty itr

[cazzybabs]

i have come back to this thread...I think the point is you have to trust teachers with your child for all kinds of things and one of those is with computers..trust us not to let them on it 9-3.30 all day everyday..we are professionals - we will be [are] selective when and how they are used....

the children don't just play - they are learning skills trough play..in my classroom I think of a skill i wish to teach and sometimes I may choose to meet that objective through the use of ICT

BUT TBH zebramummy, apart from the fact, you simply dislike computers I don't understand why you wouldn't wish your children to use them in a controlled manner?

[NotanOtter]

skidoodle wow you sound inspiring

[seeker]

People seem to think that computers have some sort of innate unfightable power - and once you introduve them you are lost - your children will never interact, read, play... The important thing to remember is that you are the parent, so if you want to limit screen time (and in our family screen time means pc, Ipod, DS, tv, dvd,mobile phone - every form of electronic gadget) you limit it. Your children (like mine) will then have the rest of their waking time to play, read, build dens, play football...whatever.

[FAQtothefuture]

why is the washing machine anology weak?

People who resisted the convinience and speed of washing machines 20yrs or so ago didn't see the need for them, could see no point in having them as their parents had coped fine without one when they were children. They learned to wash clothes by hand - the proper way. Washing machines didn't clean clothes as well etc etc.

Some of the people on this thread are saying that the "old" way of writing is better and there's basically no point in having one as the old ways are better and new ways not so good.

It's not uncommon to find people who don't know how to work washing machines - but they don't tend to feature regularly in every day life - perhaps once or twice a day at the very msot.

Computers are everywhere all the time, in all places. They are a part of life now - and imo a good one.

[badgermonkey]

I'm a secondary English teacher and I am lucky enough to have 20 PCs in my classroom. As a result, I've shifted over to using computers a lot in my teaching. I don't accept copy and pasted stuff - I provide resources that will teach them how to research.

I also do the majority of written work on computer rather than by hand. I have a few reasons for this. For one, as an adult, I never sit down and write an extended piece of writing by hand. In my life it is simply unnecessary and that's not going to change. The "draft it in your book and then type it up in neat" model is frankly bizarre - making notes by hand is fine, but who would do that at work? We do lots of long extended writing tasks, and when they have been able to work on the computers, students' written work is longer, more complex, better thought-out and yes, neater. This gives boys in particular a real confidence boost; lots of boys struggle with handwriting even when they are trying hard, and it can be very demoralising for them to see girls with lovely neat writing and a nice border round the work being praised for writing that is probably not as good as theirs in terms of content, but ticks all the boxes for presentation. Using a computer levels the playing field.

[BonsoirAnna]

I felt very proud when DD (4.9) explained to me how to access the photo library and how to take pictures on DP's iPhone .

[ZZZenAgain]

why do you say the education system isthe laughing stock of the developed world?

I have to admit I will be quite relieved pleased if dd learns to do all the things with PCs that I don't know how to do. However I don't find it really essential to be computer literate at primary school age.

[skidoodle]

I love computers, I work in multimedia production and spend whatever spare time I can rustle up these days working on tech projects of one kind or another.

I think the op and nao have a very valid point, and I too will be careful about how my children are introduced to computers and how they use them.

The washing macine analogy is weak, but I wonder if people think it would have been a good use of their time at school to have been taught to use one? How about a photocopier? Or a fax machine?

Consumer-grade productivity software doesn't need to be taught at school any more than programming a VCR. Teach them to write algorithms or how binary works if you want them to understand computers.

It's embarrassing the number that had been done on schools by ed tech companies and money is being wasted on stupid gadgets that are nothing but expensive baubles.

The hostility on this thread to people questioning an education system that is the laughing stock of the developed world is, I suppose, some kind of indication that a lack of critical thinking is nothing new in English schools.

[georgimama]

What I quite clearly meant about the NCP is not so much how they would manage to use one, as they someone who takes your attitude to ICT would manage to not use the damned stuff in everyday life (other than by living alone in a yurt on the Outer Hebrides). It is pervasive - hence the reason it is used pervasively in education.

[PuppyMonkey]

Lol at this thread. Maybe one day you'll have something serious to worry about instead.

[LynetteScavo]

zebramummy - I wouldn't be too keen on computers in nursery either. I was pleased DS1's nursery didn't have computers - although Ofsted weren't impressed about it.

Having an ICT suit means the children will be elarning how to use the computers, rather than just playing on them for long periods.

White boards can be a fantastic learning aids.

[zebramummy]

thanks yurtgirl.
re interactive whiteboards, i'd better not start on those. ds' nursery has one too - it is used to support the viewing of tv progs as far as i can see. whilst the pupil:computer ratio is not that high in nursery, the same children appear to be sitting at the machines for hours at a time - it is almost as if they hold onto them for the rest of the session if they are fortunate enough to hog one at the start. come reception they have access to a whole ICT suite and the ratio is 2:1 all of a sudden

[LynetteScavo]

Has anyone mentioned white boards? Doesn't every class room have them now? Don't white boards make computers and non-negotioable part of school life?

[FAQtothefuture]

judging from the large folder full of recycling work my DS2 brought home from his reception year they definitely still do written stuff - and he reads proper books too

[othersideofthefence]

zebramummy I can't imagine an infant or junior classroom where using ICT equipment takes the place of reading and writing using books.
I'm pro- ICT in the classroom but it is to enhance learning, not to take the place of practical work and teaching of basic skills.