Who holds the responsibility?

[melissa75]

We had a discussion in our staffroom at work today about who holds the most resposiblity for teaching a child, the parent or the teacher. Some parents seem to feel that they send their child to school so it is the teachers job to teach their child, and other parents recognise that there is no way that their child is going to progress without support from themselves.

It just amazes me as a KS1 teacher how many parents complain to both myself or one of my teaching colleagues that their child is not progressing quickly enough (ITO) in reading for example, but then they never read with their child at home. This is actually what initiated the conversation at lunch today in my staffroom, about parents who complain about lack of progress but yet don't want to take any responsiblity to help their child at home.

I guess, because I am a parent and also a teacher, I have seen it from both perspectives, but I just cannot personally imagine not supporting my child in areas that they need help in when working with them on things at home.

So just out of interest, who do you think is responsible for 'teaching' your child the academics? Is it solely the teacher, the parent(s) or someone in their home life (eg grandparent) or both? And do you complain about your childs lack of progress in class but then are not willing to do anything to help them at home?

[melissa75]

"When you broke the hours down, melissa, it did seem to make perfect sense. At the same time, I can't help remembering that in certain other countries I know, children start school later, do shorter hours in primary school, get less homework and still manage to keep up educationally compared to this country"

Cory, I think this is such a major point. IMO, children are WAY too young to be in full time school in recpetion, or even year one. So many other countries in the world as you said do not have children starting full time school until they are six or seven (Canada being one of them, which is where I was born, raised and trained as a teacher). I personally think it is so much better to wait longer, as having seen and taught reception, so many of them are just not able to cope with a full day of school. Never mind the Year ones who are expected to sit and do work all day long, and they are five!! I have always tried to give them time to have some choosing opportunities, but there is just SO much to jam into the curriculum that this is becoming more and more rare. I teach Y1/2 split class, and as we are doing SATS at the moment with the 2's, it means that the 1's obviously have to have something else to do, so we have been setting out construction activities for them to do in small groups, and it is so nice to see them have time to do this, teaches problem solving skills, fine motor skills, social skills to name but a few. It is just such a shame, that those making the decisions about what has to be taught and when forget how old these children actually are, and that jamming words, numbers etc down them each day at such a young age really does not do them much good as proven by worldwide statistics, because it is the countries where children start full time school at 6 or 7 that have the higher success rates, so they must be doing something right!

twinsetandpearls, we have a lot of the same ideas on things it seems, as I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have written. Can I have you as one of my pupils parents please?!

saadia, such an important and true statement you made, where you said you volunteered in the classroom and saw how little one to one each pupil gets. This is such an imperative aspect of things. I personally think it is so important for every parent to be given the opportunity to volunteer one day in their childs school, not their childs classroom, but the school. This allows parents to see what "really" goes on in the classroom. So many of my parent volunteers have come to me after volunteering and said they had such a different attitude towards schools, education and teachers after having spent time in the class. It is usually the parents that complain that cannot seem to make the time to come and spend even half a day in the classroom.

[twinsetandpearls]

I think it is the job of parents to provide the socal skills so allow learing in the classroom to take place. So teaching her right from wrong, taking her to groups to develop her social skills, following up any concerns at home. We are very aware that she is an only child so spend a lot of time playng boardgames with her or inviting friends over. I also very very rarely allow her to have time off school, I would never allow a holiday in term time.

I also see it my role to inspire a love of learning and to support what dd is doing through trips and real lfe situations. For example dd is a lover of nature so we go bird watching, she rides, goes fishing. She is a number whizz who also loves a spreadsheet ( don't ask) so we make spreadsheets and graphs of birds we have spotted, how our plants are growing etc.

We also see ourselves as role models she sees us as constantly learning and reading. Most children of my dd age (7) still look up at and want to be like their parents so she too loves learning and reading. I have noticed that dd likes things we like. Dp works with computers and loves science and maths. DD not surprisingly loves the same. I teach RE and dd shares my interest, I also love history dd loves coming on trips and like her mother has an interest and growing knowledge of women history. Our house is full of books in every room, she has her own library of encyclopedias and books she can use to look things up She is a little sponge constantly soaking up new knowledge, some of that is nature but a lot is nurture.

We get a letter at the start of each term from the school saying what dd will be studying. We will follow that up at home and often plan trips or activities to follow that up.

The actual teaching is up to her teachers though. However I think it isn easier to fix bad teaching than bad parenting.

[saadia]

It's an interesting question. A while ago I would have said that the school holds responsibility but now I think that ultimately it has to be a partnership.

Ds1 is now in Y2 but since Reception his teachers have been telling us that he needs to practice reading/comprehension and maths. They all said he was able but needed practice.

I would read with him but found him very unco-operative with anything else. He has been in middle to lower sets in most subjects as his concentration has lapsed lately.

Anyway, having volunteered in a couple of schools and seen how little attention each child gets, dh and I now do a lot of work at home with him . Over Easter dh taught him his times tables, and I worked with him as well and he has progressed a lot and his confidence has improved.

I would say parents can and really should make an effort to re-inforce school work and help their child. In many cases children just need more practice with various things.

[katiestar]

So does the school not have any legal responsibility to provide an education ?

[terramum]

In law it is parents who are responsible for ensuring their children receive a suitable education. If a parent decides to use the school system then they are still responsible, it's just that they are using the school's resources.

[cory]

When you broke the hours down, melissa, it did seem to make perfect sense. At the same time, I can't help remembering that in certain other countries I know, children start school later, do shorter hours in primary school, get less homework and still manage to keep up educationally compared to this country.

I wonder if we are not partly inefficient because we try teaching children too young. My ds was certainly not ready to learn to read when he was 4, but we had to spend hour after tedious hour doing reading exercises and making him miserable. He has finally twigged after 4 years of feeling a failure.

When I started school in Sweden as a (near) 7yo, I don't think there was a child in the whole class who didn't twig reading in the first term. At about the same age as my ds, when he finally got it after 4 years of struggling. Is this efficient?

(and btw those of us who were ready before taught ourselves to read, or kept ourselves entertained in other ways, noone was made to hold back)

With dd I did very little homework in infants because I knew she was too young and exhausted after a long day at school; it was totally counterproductive. I noticed this morning that she has nicked my copy of Vanity Fair to read at break time (she is 12. So I don't think I have exactly failed her.

[katiestar]

A aprent has responsibility for educating their chikld.If they choose to send the child to school then they have delegated that responsibility to the school.In an ideal world that would be the end of the story.Ideally there should be enough manpower in school to make sure every child gets all the support he or she needs.
Howvwer in the real world this isn't the case and parental support 'plugs the gap'. The danger is when schools assume this input because in some homes it can't or doesn't happen. What happens to the child then ?

[hellywobs]

I went to a school governors conference last year where they said that only about 14% of a child's attainment is down to the school. The rest is home life, peer pressure etc. So that would indicate that parents should be involved as far as they are able.

[Acinonyx]

On a simple level - what are we sending our kids to school for/ The hours they spend at school are the best for learning wrt alertness and attention. What is school for? It's not really just a social club or childminding agency - it's the means by which our children are educated.

I am perfectly willing to further educate dd - but that's not the point. State education is a leveller - it is there to provide adequate education to all children irrespective of their home circunstances - that's the whiole bardy point. So yes - the responsisbility rests with the school and the teachers and to suggest otherwise is completely missing the point of state funded education.

[stillenacht]

zippy - i am so with you on that one sounds like my DS and yours are sooooo similar

[zippy539]

Sorry - haven't read whole thread but this is a subject close to my heart. DD(5) is a bright little button - get's everythign first time round, keen as mustard, spent the whole easter holidays asking for spelling tests. [hmmm]

DS (7) is a dreamer and has no interest in anything which isn't from another galaxy. We spent the entire holidays coaching him in spelling and maths (2 hrs per day) at teacher's request because he is struggling in class.

Now - as far as DD is concerned I expect her education to be taken care of by school. As far as DS is concerned I realise that he needs extra help and he ain't gonna get it anywhere else except from home. So it's horses for courses - I know it, the teacher knows it - we both want the best for DS but there simply isn't the class time for her to coach him individually.

On the other hand I WISH that the teachers were soley responsible - because when my lovely DS arrives home from school he has had 6 hours of brain frying confusion then gets me shoving text books in his face and demanding that we practise his tables before we even start on homework.

I suppose what I'm saying is I really WISH that kids could learn AT SCHOOL and then at home have time to do what they want to do - watch Dr Who, draw, read, dream.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Exactly.

[MrsBartlet]

TheFallenMaddonna - I think it is only natural to be selective and follow your own interests in what you do with the dc. We are both very into books and so read a lot with the dc. We love history so read lots of history with them but I struggle with the science! We don't see what we do with them as teaching them but as sharing our interests.

[MrsBartlet]

We support our dc's learning by reading a lot with them at home. We read around subjects they are doing at school but we also delve into things that they have not covered or do not cover at school but which tie in with our interests. I want them to grow up thinking that education and learning doesn't just happen in school but is a lifelong habit. Whilst the nitty gritty of their education is the school's responsibility, I believe that we are responsible for broadening that education.

DLI - my son's junior school has a list inside his "Learning Habit" book each term telling us which topics they will be doing and it is indeed very useful!

[stillenacht]

As a secondary teacher and mum to 2 boys i have found primary education really baffling - when DS1 was in year R amd year 1 we had things come home in his bookbag from the teacher saying "still need help to sound out CF words (common frequency i think)" I didn't have a clue what this meant - had at the time no internet at home to look it up - also CVC and other teacher speak that i don't recall from being at primary school myself... I openly admit that we don't do a lot of reading with my DS and he doesn't really enjoy reading but I do think its the teachers job to let the parents know what is expected of their child in terms of academic attainment by the end of the year - give us a copy of the yearly reports (blank) at the beginning of the year to let us know what they are going to learn and how we can assist and cut the educational jargon too.

School-home communication is very very important. Recently i have sent 2 emails to my sons (supposedly very good - excellent OFSTED blardy blar) school and received nothing to even acknowledge i sent them (one was before Easter). My DH has had a text from a mother of one of our GCSE pupils tonight and has replied - he was on the phone talking to GCSE pupils and their parents for 5 hours today and yesterday - my sons primary never communicate like this. I feel as if we are doing everything possible for other peoples kids yet my DS' primary is very complacent and doesn't let us know what the hell is going on those classrooms. (Its difficult for me to go into chat with teacher as i have a DS with SN and work everyday too and i am not able to have meetings with DS2 in tow which is why i really rely on email communication or phone calls)

[TheFallenMadonna]

Dc's school offer courses for people who want to learn how to do maths the new way And a talk for parents on how phonics is taught in reception, and reading in year 1. I think this is a pretty good way of going about things.

I'm thinking about what I do to support the academic teaching, and TBH I'm rather selective I do a lot of science things with them, and history, because that's what I enjoy I suppose. We read a lot to our children, but don't force them to read to us unless they want to. Which certainly isn't every night.

But DH and I both had very positive educational experiences, are confident in our abilities and I am a teacher. It makes me a bit sad when I read teachers judging parents for not behaving as they do really.

[ingles2]

I don't think it's as simple as who has the most responsibility for teaching a child, the school or the parents.
The question is actually how can the school communicate properly to enable the parent to support the school and the child.
I am a very supportive parent who does loads with my boys. But I do that mainly without any support or influence from the school. We have attended 2 primaries, one poor, where we got nothing and now a great school, but we still only get a sheet saying the maths targets are xxxxxxxx, no explanation of how to do it, what methods are being used etc.
I'm sure this is common, there are constantly threads from MNetters asking how to help with homework.
So my answer is... the school is entirely responsible for making sure parents are able to support the academic teaching.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Also likely to fall through the cracks if the teacher is assuming a level of parent intervention that is not happening I would have thought.

[melissa75]

I think it is the responsibilty of the teacher to lay the foundation for the academic subjects, but it is the responsiblity of the parents to support their child with their own individual needs. For example, reading with your child for five minutes at least each day, and if you are not able to do it for whatever reason, have someone else do it (an older sibling, a neighbour, a friend, a relative etc...) I currently have a Mum of a child in my class who is coming to me at least twice a week complaining of her DS's lack of progress in reading, but yet she does not do anything to help him at home. He for example has a very bright sibling who would be perfectly capable of sitting and listening to him read, but does not do it.

Dizzymum "The children are in school five days a week from 9 until 3:30 and I do wonder why teachers seem to find this insufficient time and need to rely on parental support as a necessity rather than as an optional extra"

If only life were that easy! I do not have the children for lessons before 9:45am due to assembly, register etc... so that leaves me 9:45-10:30 then 11-12, then 1:15-2:30 and 2:45-3. So this is a total of 3 hours and 15 minutes of actual teaching time. I have taken out the time for playtimes, lunch etc.. so since the government says you need to be doing an hour of literacy and an hour of numeracy a day, that leaves me with 1 hour and 15 minutes per day to teach the other 11 subjects in a week! So I have 7.5 hours to teach 2 PE lessons (both of which are supposed to be a minimum of 45 minutes a piece) leaving me with 5 hours to teach 10 subjects! How is that humanly possible? Especially when you have interruptions, children being taken out for extra support, toilet breaks etc etc etc etc etc.... also times this by 30 children, and without parental (or some sort of at home support), unfortunately unless your child is extremely bright, it has been proven, that your child is likely to fall through the cracks of the system so to speak

[footballsgalore]

As a teacher and Mum to Yr 2 child, I have to say I shy away from doing any 'teaching' at home.
I do however, bring learning into our daily lives eg paying for items in shops, working out how many packs of football cards can be bought for £5, reading instructions and road signs that we come across.
What i definitely don't do is sit down with DS1 and do a worksheet/workbook. This is mainly because I see every day just how demanding the school day is for young children. I much prefer 'life education' and hopefully applying what he does learn in school.
I think , as others have said, that supporting a good attitude to learning is a vital part of parenting, and so i am supporting the school by hopefully making my child into a willing learner.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I think 'the academics' - the curriculum - needs to be covered at school. My ds's teacher said that, for example, they cover 'how to read' at school. How can they not, when they know that some of the parents are functionally illierate? And yes, it would be lovely if all parents supported their children fully when it came to their education, but it's not so straightforward. Bad experiences of education themselves for example, or a mistrust of authority for whatever reason.

I'm a secondary teacher, and what I look for in parents is for them to back me up. Doesn't always happen, for the reasons above, and that's sad but you have to just get on with it.

[DizzyMum]

I agree completely with the points raised by Roisin and Cory and for that reason think that the responsibility for teaching children the academics (reading, writing and maths) lies with the teacher. The children are in school five days a week from 9 until 3:30 and I do wonder why teachers seem to find this insufficient time and need to rely on parental support as a necessity rather than as an optional extra. I wonder if the answer is that what is being taught is simply not academic subjects but values and ethics. The responsibility for teaching these should lie with the parents and the wider community and can be learned outside school time.

[Juxal]

I got told off (very gently) for teaching dd the alphabet and some other stuff. However, I haven't let that put me off!

The major problem is that they are taught in such a different way from the way I was (40+ years ago) that I couldn't teach her if I wanted to.

I expect the teacher to teach and then I will do my best to help dd understand when she's at home.

If I try to teach her, say, adding up, I bring in things that they haven't got to yet (columns eg, unit tens and hundreds etc) which confuses and upsets her. I have learnt not to do it, but to leave it to the pros and I will encourage, support and help here.

[melissa75]

Cory wrote "on a slightly more serious note, can you imagine what it would be like if you struggled every day with looking after a terminally ill partner/another child with a serious incapacitating disability/or with illness or depression of your own? can you imagine what it would be like if you yourself did not have the confidence to read with your child because you'd never really learnt? and if you were stuck working such long hours in a dead-end job that you had no time to go on courses of your own?"

Entirely agree, however I personally feel it is still the responsiblity of the parent to provide at home support. Everyone has different struggles in life, whether they be as you describe or other issues, such as being the sandwich generation and trying to deal with an ill parent or one with alzheimers etc, and also having a child who has high needs, where do you lay your priorities? I guess thats the ultimate question. I too, know of many people in situations which are difficult to almost near impossible, but they still make it a priority to provide support for their children, whether it be by asking a friend or family member to help out, or making sure that even if your child is being cared for by a child minder after school that that person sits and listens to the child read their book for five minutes each day, or if you are lucky enough to have financial resources to afford outside tutoring. I just feel, IMO, that it is important to exhaust every resource possible to provide support for your child to make them the best they can be.

When I first started teaching in England (I am from Canada), I taught in a very inner city school which had a lot of families with a lot of difficulties in their lives, whether it be social issues, or financial or a range of other problems, there were so many that even though they were in the depths of despair for one reason or another, but they still made their childs education a priority.

DLI...does your school not provide a topic curriculum web? (I am assuming we are talking about a primary school here?) If they do not provide one, perhaps you can suggest they do? Every school I have taught at, we always send out a topic web at the beginning of the term telling parents what topics we will be covering over the term, and if necessary, how parents can further support at home.

Dysgu wrote "The teacher, the parent and the child have to be involved. I also think that, if the child sees that the teacher (school) and their parent(carer) see that their progress is important and do help them to learn then they will see the point in going to school." Here, here! What a great statement!

[roisin]

The thing is if you acknowledge that parental input is vital and build your system around that assumed/desired support, then the gulf widens between children from privileged backgrounds and those from very deprived backgrounds, whose parents/carers are simply unable to offer any kind of support.

We have many children at our school (secondary), for whom simply arriving at school more-or-less on time, more-or-less in school uniform is a major achievement for them/their family. Even an expectation to have a bag and a pen is apparently unrealistic for some.