Any governors out there?

[debs40]

Hi

I've decided to move my son from his current school after a discussion with the new Head teacher about a variety of policy issues.

The new Head was very difficult to deal with and during the meeting she, rather inappropriately I felt, raised some very minor issues about my son (e.g. she showed me some books he had chewed and told me she had seen him playing alone in the playground 'aggressively'). These concerns were not placed in any context.

I have very discreetly and politely withdrawn my son from Friday this week but I would like to raise my concerns about the way the head dealt with this and I wondered what the best way is for me to do that. Is it by a letter to the governors?

Thnaks

[debs40]

Thanks. I agree with what you say here completely and I am anxious to leave it to the CofG to resolve herself really. Just the fresh post made me think again. We are all human but it was a nasty experience.

I think you're right about the Sen Gov thing. She did say SENco but I can see that can't be right. She is a very sensible and articulate parent though and I think she will get the point across.

Thanks again for all your help and advice

[robinpud]

Chair of Governors possibly meant she was the special needs governor rather than the SENco, but should understand the difference!

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

...same deference that they get from pupils.

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

Debs40 -

Yes, I don't dispute that there has been poor practice here. In an ideal world, anyone who reached the level of head teacher would have inter-personal and communication skills of the highest level and should be able to talk openly and frankly to parents without leaving them feeling anxious and upset. Sadly, not all heads (and not all teachers) can manage this; my own, perhaps unfair, theory is that they spend so much of their time speaking to children that they are comparatively unskilled in talking to adults as equals and expect the same deference that they get from parents. I think where we part company is that, in my view, the head's questions about your son's chewing books etc should not have been off limits but she should have handled this part of the conversation far better than she did. I don't think she needed first to consult or involve the class teacher but it might have given her more credibility if she had. But, as I said, before, I wasn't there so can't judge her intentions or manner.

I don't know whether the governors will 'bend over backwards' to accommodate the head's actions. The governing body is meant to be a critical friend to the school and shouldn't just rubber-stamp what the head has done. They would, though, need to see clear evidence that the head's actions were unreasonable, which is why (as Romy has said before) you need to separate the factual account of what happened from your feelings about it, although it would be relevant (of course) to mention that your dissatisfaction was part of your decision to quit the school.

[debs40]

Hi - thanks for this. I think you are laregly right but I am being VERY generous in interpreting her actions this way.

There was no communication between her and the class teacher. I have asked both and both confirm there wasn't.

I think I mentioned before that my son's teacher was actually away at that point for a funeral. Only two days. She could have waited!

I believe she was given the book by her admin/receptionist who saw my son chewing it. So she went down to the class and took his pencils too.

One of the reasons I feel I can't take this further is that there many will bend over backwards to accomodate the Head's actions even though she has not explained herself in any way. We are simply ascribing generous interpretations to what she did.

Yes, she emailed me but the descriptions she used of my son as imaginative play etc came from me. She did not say this to me when she raised it. She was hostile and unsympathetic or I would not have taken this stance.

I think my original post called it unprofessional and I stand by that. I think this largely stems from a set of circumstances (new term, previous difficult meeting etc) but I will never forget how easy it is to start doubting your son's behaviour because of insensitive comments from an educator who should know better.

This was poor practice.

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

Debs40 - my child also changed schools recently and everything has gone very smooothly. I'm sure your son will thrive in his new school.

Your post of 8.01 yesterday morning seems to be saying (if I understand you correctly) that you think the Head was being clumsy and communicating poorly rather than having a dig at you or your son. The head did reply on Thursday to your e-mail didn't she? Given that you've already expressed your concerns to the chair of governors - who I'm sure won't forget this episode - I think you've done as much as you can. Of course, only you can decide how much further to take this.

On the specific point about the injuries, it sounds as if the head has acknowledged that school policy is to inform parents and that staff will be reminded of that. So, as you say, it's hard to see what more you could achieve here.

I too was surprised that anyone could combine the roles of chair of governors and SENCO. One other thing has only just occurred to me. I think you mentioned that the head showed you your son's chewed books and pencils. I really do understand why you found her style of communication to be odd and upsetting, but the fact that she had these must, I think, show that there had been some sort of communication between her and the teacher - how else would she have got possession of them?

Once again, best wishes for the new school.

[debs40]

Dr George - thanks for this.

The Head admitted to me (without apology) in the meeting that they should have reported the incidents to me and said that she would ensure 'policy' was adhered to. In respect of that, I don't think there is much more I can do?

In respect of the comments made about my son's behaviour, the feedback on this board to date has been that she acted appropriately in raising these matters with me. My view has always been that i cannot believe it is acceptable practice just to throw in a few little personal comments about a child in a meeting like this, particularly when you don't know the child and haven't even spoken to his teacher and when you give the parent no context to your concerns e.g. I'm raising these points because.... It just all seemed very personal and unprofessional

Even if there were genuine concerns, it seems that the governors on this board think she acted appropriately in raising them like this, so what is to say the school's board won't think the same. Wouldn't I just be wasting my time and causing a great deal of stress?

For me this was the final straw. The school has had many problems over the last year and I hoped a new Head would point it in a new direction. She dealt with the meeting so badly, I could not see any point in continuing there particularly when I could place my son in a school with an 'outstanding' Ofsted report which is two minutes walk away.

PS. The CofG told me she was SENco but I will check this.

[DrGeorge]

Debs - I wish I had read your post earlier.

You are absolutely right to be concerned, I think there are several issues here that concern me - I am not sure I would be removing my child so early - but totally accept that you know your child and make the decision that is right for you and your family - the fact that you feel so much better now he has finished indicates this.

Firstly - if the school had concerns re your child having any particular special needs then this should be addressed with you in a specific meeting about your child's progress - I would expect this meeting to be between you and the child's teacher possibly with SENCo present but probably a one to one initially. I would not expect HT to be involved in the early stages and if they were it would be with the class teacher not just on spec.

Secondly you are absolutely right to be concerned about a child coming home having had treatment in school for an injury with no documentation/info to parent.

Thirdly - if you are so concerned about the HT that you are taking your child out of the school then certainly the governing body should know about it. If you have raised concerns with the HT then they should address them with you.

Fourthly - you say the Chair of Governors is the SENCo - this cannot be so. The SENCo now has to be a qualified teacher, a teaching assistant may undertake some of the role but the responsible person for SEN/Inclusion must be a qualified teacher. The chair of governors cannot work at the school, so I don't see how your CoG can be SENCo. Many governing bodies will have a named governor responsible for overseeing inclusion/special needs but they really only feedback to the governing body on the way school manages SEN, work on policies etc. They don't get involved with specific children.

I think I would proceed along the following lines.

Email HT again asking for a reply to your previous concerns and give a cut off date (a week?). I would ask specifically for answers to your queries, what school policies say etc. I can't believe the school accident policy does not indicate that parents should be informed about injuries etc.

I would wait for the reply and consider whether it is adequate.

Regardless of whether it is adequate I would write formally to CoG identifying your concerns - be specific and highlight that the result of these concerns and them not being dealt with adequately is that you have removed your child from the school.

Whilst I accept that your HT may be relatively new to post, simply to become HT they should have several years of experience and be equipped with reasonable communication skills (yes I know many HT's out there completely lack them!). If this HT's communications skills are going to lose the school pupils then the Governing Body need to know about it so that they can set this HT some performance management targets to address this and the sooner they do so the better. No Governing body wants to find out that their HT is alienating parents only after they've lost a significant number of pupils and the message has go out to the local community why!

So write away - copy the letter to the LA (or diocese if your a religious school) and wait for a response. If you are not happy, particularly with an aspect of school safety then any parent has a right to contact ofsted directly and inform about their concerns.

Good luck - plese don't just leave it now your child has left - there are lots of other parents and children (and staff)under the care of this HT

[Romy7]

hope it all goes well at the new school and you have a relaxing week 'off'. mine have moved about a fair bit due to other circs (dh job - dd1 is in yr 4 in her 4th school lol - and i have to say that they don't bat an eyelid as long as it is handled properly!)

[debs40]

I just wanted to update those who have helped me!

My son left school yesterday which was a huge relief and he semed completely unbothered. I'm loking forward to him starting his new school week after next.

I watched the Head at the Harvest festival yesterday and I felt sorry for her. She was very nervous and looked a little out of her depth (this is a massive infants school - 250 kids - which has had real problems) and I thought she was really trying to settle in.

So, I spoke to the chair of governors again. I felt, after I calmed down, that the Head, being new and caught off balance by my questions had dealt with our meeting very badly by raising clumsy comments like this when she was doing nothing better than thinking aloud.Some people are just not good at handling questions and are not good at communicating. It is unfortunate in a Head but she is human.

Anyway, the chair is a very sensible parent who is also the SENco and she agreed to raise it informally with the Head at a meeting next week to ensure this "never happens to another child". Her words.

The chair knows me also to be a sensible parent who does not raise things unnecessarily and who was genuinely distressed by this.

Anyway, I felt that was the most constructive way forward!

Thanks for your help all!

[debs40]

Thanks - MollieO I would do it so that others might not be dealt with like this.

Romy& - I will keep it detached. I have a good friend who is a deputy head at a large comprehensive and I will ask her to read through etc.

[Romy7]

it depends what letter you write tbh. if you raise valid concerns of the professionalism or manner of the HT then they would probably take advice from the lea, but the gb would be aware of issues. as they are involved with HT performance review (and her pay increments lol) it stands to reason there would be discussions and they and the lea would make the decision IF there was anything to progress and the appropriate procedure. your job is not to worry about any of that - it truly doesn't matter for you what happens next, and you would not be a party to it. if you want to write a letter detailing your concerns then do it. but do make sure you stick to the detached version and try not to muddy the waters with irrelevant historical info. they will be party to all that anyway.

[MollieO]

Not sure what you would gain by writing a letter to the Chair of Governors bearing in mind the decision to leave has already been made.

Personally I think that having made your decision you would do better to put this whole business behind you and enjoy your ds's new school.

[debs40]

Thanks.

Have contacted Chair of Govs who says I have to write to them but doesn't know procedure from then on! I asked if I could just write a letetr explaining why we had left but she doesn't know.

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

That's fine. It really is. I truly don't expect you to agree with everything that I've said. You asked for the views of a school governor and that is what I offered. I don't claim to be a 'typical' or 'representative' governor and other governors may well see things differently. Nor do I know the circumstances of your school or of all the events which led to your dissatisfaction with it.

Good luck to you and your son at the new school.

[debs40]

By the way, you'd have to read my post on God and religion to see the background to this. This school is a community one with a large christian community which emanates from one church which is creationist in outlook.

It has been a troubled school which barely kept going after its last Ofsted when two local heads were called into keep it afloat.

When parents left the school, the christian community stayed.

This woman was setting out her stall.

[debs40]

Thanks but we will have to disagree on this.

I have no problems with questions being asked but sensitively and appropriately and when supported by genuine concern/evidence

This was a new Head (2 weeks). She did not know my son. She watched him for 10 minutes. She had not bothered to speak to his class teacher. She did not make the comments in a concerned fashion. She was accusational and aggressive. She dropped his chewed books and pencils on my lap. The manner in which she raised this behaviour in the context of a difficutl meeting on completely different matters was inapproproate.

I do not say this lightly but this woman was inexplicably aggressive in dealing with me on the question of RE. When this came up out of the blue (the issue raised about the playground had been about another boy (with known problems) hitting my son)

Every other parent I run this past has had the same response - they would feel this woman was trying to have a go.

I have taken him away because trust has broken down.

You can't get away from this fact - if she was really concerned, she would have spent 5 minutes talking to his teacher (reception or Year 1) before throwing these things in to our discussion. As I said at the beginning of these posts, she was unprofessional and uncaring.

The parent is not always wrong about these things. When I corresponded with her and told her we were felt policy matters had become personal, she did not correct me and has never done so since.

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

I'd echo what Romy has said.

You sound satisfied with the Head's reply, so if you're determined to take your son away from the school and there's literally no going back, there's really not much to be gained from further correspondence with the governors.

And as Romy says, in the most general terms I think it's far better that schools go through the process of asking 'does that child have behavioural difficulties or special needs?' 'After consideration/investigation: no she doesn't' than that what might be evidence of such needs is overlooked. Behaviour which catches the school's attention isn't necessarily being pathologised, but schools are often the first to notice that a child is struggling and are often the first to put the child on the path to receiving the help and support they need.

[Romy7]

i don't think the gb will do much, tbh - better that behaviour is 'pathologised' unnecessarily than ignored when a child genuinely does need help - obviously not in this case.
she does suggest you raised the concerns about a particular relationship/ playground behaviour though, so her points did have a basis, however weak.
if you are happy, leave it and walk. i think it's all blown over now as far as the school are concerned. it is a shame you felt you had to remove him, tbh, but we all have to do what we think is right for our dcs.

[debs40]

Here is the response from the Head:

?I think that you are right, DS has been happy at school, he has friends and has settled well.

I watched DS play on the morning before I spoke to you and what I observered was that he chose to play alone ( that day) and that his play was imaginative and sometimes agressive but not toward others just in his imagination and play actions. This was in the context of you raising about his interactions with X and I think we agreed that it was more X that 'invaded' his space than the other way round.

The chewing remains a mystery. I think we discussed that he had chewed his books and quite regularly chewed pencils and that you had observed him chewing his swimming 'woggle', but we didn't conclude why he needed to do this. I have no concerns about DS's behaviour and I'm sure he will settle at his new school and make new friends quickly.?

This is essentially what his teacher said and it is not how she raised matters with me.

However, I have written back to thank the Head for these comments and I have politely pointed out that the way she raised these issues without warning (in a meeting about RE) and without talking to my son's teacher caused real concern that his behaviour was in being unnecessarily pathologised.

She has said thank you for the feedback.

Do you think I should still raise this with the GB or leave it? I kind of think she knows she messed up What do you think?

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

Aww shucks.

You're very welcome.

I think we (well, I) have been quite challenging but maybe that's the benefit of anonymous forums - the givers of advice and opinions can be pretty forthright and the recipients can choose how much or how little of that advice and opinions they follow.

All the best.

[debs40]

You are both right.

Thank you both. I couldn't have coped these last couple of days without your well-considered advice!

I'm always amazed at how kind some people can be on the internet. Taking the time and effort to advise a complete stranger.

Thanks so much. It really has been appreciated !!!

[MadBadandDangeroustoKnow]

Can't add much to what Romy's already said.

I think it's a bit soon to say the Head has 'ignored' your e-mail - it was sent yesterday wasn't it? - and I imagine/hope that the Head is taking time to send a considered reply. Anyway, as Romy has said, now that the teacher has settled your anxieties you have less need of any further explanation from the Head.

In your shoes, I would just send a 'for the record' letter to the GB, detailing your concerns about the way in which the Head handled your meeting. I wouldn't even copy it to the Head - she already knows of your concerns - and what the GB does with the letter is up to them.

Good luck at the new school.

[Romy7]

alaayed? allayed lol

[Romy7]

the teacher has dealt with it. she has alaayed your concerns regarding your child. your issue now is presumably with the HT, so speak with the GB, write a final letter copied to HT, and leave quietly. no point going any further.