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Ofsted says outstanding but y neighbours say no - what would you do?

35 replies

Greatfun · 22/09/2008 15:14

My local primary school has been given a glowing report from ofsted however many of my neighbours think its a bit rough and not a good school. I liked the feel of it when I looked round but not so happy with the position (on main road/ near railway). The catchment area is variable from middle class to a fairly expansive estate with a bad repuatation. If you just looke at the ofsted report you wold think it was perfect but so many people have out me off.

OP posts:
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pointydog · 23/09/2008 21:36

It seemed to me that you were implying that a school can receive an overall good grading even though results are poor due to the 'intellect' of the pupils and their difficult background.

Or are you just saying that the learning and teaching in that one particular lesson would be graded 'good'?

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teslagirl · 23/09/2008 21:08

Finally,

Pointydog, Quote :'If everyone in the class was at the low level you describe, then of course the lesson would be good. If some of the children are above and some well above, that would be looked for and would not be graded as good if some children were not being challenged.'

From my first post: ...during the course of this 'good' graded lesson...."she extended the more able of the children"

Extended in this context means 'challenged'.

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teslagirl · 23/09/2008 21:04

pointydog, I wouldn't consider it 'a poor level' if the teacher is actually managing to get those DCs to UNDERSTAND what the concept of addition MEANS, an idea hitherto ungrasped. That to me is 'making a breakthrough' and all credit to those teachers, correctly identified by OFSTED as teaching to a 'good' standard. I'd imagine a school would be happy to recognise that it's doing as well as it can, perhaps against the odds.

I could have come in there, guns blazing and said "How DARE you accuse my SEN child who has struggled manfully to grasp the concept of addition of being 'poor'? How DARE you load value judgements on them?" but I didn't because I don't think you've understood my point.

Blu, the teaching can be world class but the demographic of the DCs CAN make the world of difference between that teaching falling on fertile soil or barren.

Education is a 3 way process: DC, teacher, parent. We seem to have overlooked that holy trinity of educational potential-reaching. If one party isn't 'on board', you're shovelling ordure up hill. The bald fact remains that one is MORE LIKELY to find one of those factors 'awry' in a deprived area. That's what the 'social deprivation' bit means.

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teslagirl · 23/09/2008 20:54

OK, team. Let's start from fundamentals: The OP, which I am responding to states:

" My local primary school has been given a glowing report from ofsted however many of my neighbours think its a bit rough and not a good school. I liked the feel of it when I looked round but not so happy with the position (on main road/ near railway). The catchment area is variable from middle class to a fairly expansive estate with a bad repuatation. If you just looke at the ofsted report you wold think it was perfect but so many people have out me off."

My answer was:
"OFSTEDs do what they say on the tin.

For example, a local secondary is described as 'Satisfactory'. Local lore has it that the school is AWFUL. Well, when you read the OFSTED, the report is correct. We have to read these things for what they are.

Example: YR 7 maths- 'Good'. The teacher laid out clearly the teaching objectives of the lesson at the beginning. She used several different ways to illustrate her lesson; she extended the more able of the children and used alternative teaching methods for the less able. She then questioned the group to ascertain what they'd learned.

All sounds 'good', doesn't it? And it surely is- BUT what if the lesson she was teaching 11 year olds was basic addition skills? 7+11=?. The DCs at the school enter with 'a skills base much below that expected of similar children nationally'. SO the school is trying its best with a 'difficult' catchment.

So our lesson is that, as OFSTED states, the school is doing as well as it can be expected within the boundaries of the intellect of its intake. But that doesn't mean the intake is any less likely to be a product of its deprived, neglected home environment."

I am explaining why an school's OFSTED can be 'good' yet the local perception of that school is that it's 'poor'.

The school in question which I have used as an example to illustrate my point is in what I feel many of us would describe as a 'rough' area. It exhibits all the indicators of social and financial deprivation. However, the school is doing what it's paid to do. In its teaching, it has:

A) laid down the expectations to the class from the outset
B) taught using several different methodologies in an attempt to include every DC's 'learning style'
C) It challenged the more able by extending them
D) It recapped at the end to ensure a learning experience had taken place.

However, because of the deprived family backgrounds from which many of the DCs hail- to spell it out, backgrounds that do not support education, do not support discipline, do not instil responsibility, those DCs arrive at the school with 'below average attainment'. I'm not making this up. The DCs are tested, same as yours and mine are upon their arrival at school- becasue of these factors, the DCs observed in the lesson are learning what we MIGHT consider pretty basic stuff.

The OFSTED correctly identifies that a Satisfactory/Good whatever lesson has been observed. This is what they write in their OFSTED report.

I personally would not want my 11 year old sharing a maths classroom with a DC who could not add 7+11. My DC would be more likely to encounter a class where this was the 'norm' in a school situated in a socially and financially deprived neighbourhood. It does not mean the DCs from such an area are necessarily 'thick' by any means. If a bright DC isn't doing well in that environment, it implies that the factors that ensure successful learning are not present in its life.

Personally, I would visit each and every option school and seek to select one which, amongst all the other factors, would teach my DC amongst other DCs who were 'coming from the same place'. And that isn't a geographical area.

An OFSTED is a useful tool amongst many in choosing a school. But I hope I have been able to demonstrate why 'a good OFSTED' doesn't NECESSARILY imply a top notch school.

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Blu · 23/09/2008 17:46

Tesla - 'rough' is about the children in the school - not the teachers (we hope!!) the teaching, or quality of education. And if the quality of teaching is good SO WHAT if the demographic is what it is? Some - or even many - of the children may well not be high achievers, but if the teaching - and behaviour management in the classroom - is good all children can benefit according to their potential.

I agree with TotalChaos - and it is about that sort of attitude that I made my post.

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pointydog · 23/09/2008 17:43

You make it sound as if every child in the school is working at a poor level and that that is happily accepted by those in charge.

Which is a complete nonsense in teh eduction system I work in.

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pointydog · 23/09/2008 17:41

tesla, I am not quite sure what you are saying with your ofested post.

In Scotland, our ofsted equivalent also look at every child's test results and expect to hear good reasons why some of the children have not reached the 'average' level and, of course, expect to see some above. They look for pace and challenge in the classroom.

If everyone in the class was at the low level you describe, then of course the lesson would be good. If some of the children are above and some well above, that would be looked for and would not be graded as good if some children were not being challenged.

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TotalChaos · 23/09/2008 17:15

"So our lesson is that, as OFSTED states, the school is doing as well as it can be expected within the boundaries of the intellect of its intake. But that doesn't mean the intake is any less likely to be a product of its deprived, neglected home environment."

Tesla - I am finding that last sentence a bit uncomfortable reading. Implies that reception aged children should be written off for the purposes of mingling with middle class MNetter's children. Out of interest, are you a teacher?

DS goes to what would be regarded as a "rough" school. Parents are not particularly friendly to outsiders, but other than that are respectable and supportive of their kids' education. DS loves it, and has really come on there (he has mild language related SN).

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chipmunkswhereareyou · 23/09/2008 17:07

Definitely connotations of using the word rough. There are plenty of badly-behaved posh kids too.

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OrmIrian · 23/09/2008 17:04

Yes I see that. But I would use the Ofsted in conjunction with the results rather than either in isolation.

I agree that 'rough' is a very loaded word.

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SparklyGothKat · 23/09/2008 15:59

hen we moved I looked at schools in the surrounding area. I couldn't get the kids into the 'best' schools, and one school had no SATs on the website. I phoned that school and because it was a new school (2 merged school) which had opened 1 year before, the SATs results were not online. I found out their SATs were very good and had a look around.

When we arrived on the kids first day there, we meet a few people that we knew, and they said that the school was terrible, and I shouldn't have placed my kids there etc. I have actually found that although I don't like the head, the school is very good. DD1 has SNs as does Ds1. Dd1 has come on leaps and bounds since being there, and the school were very good when DS1 had a big leg operation last year.

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teslagirl · 23/09/2008 15:52

Well it DOES happen Orm, in that the KS SATS- isn't it '3' in secondary, aged around 14?- results aren't particularly impressive in said school. The point I'm making is that a 'satisfactory' OFSTED reflects that a school is achieving what could reasonably be expected GIVEN the 'difficulties' it faces. It may be achieving some good 'value adding', for instance, thus a school with not-very-good GCSEs is by no means automatically assumed to be 'failing'.

It's also my belief that a school such as the one your DS1 is at is likely to serve him well esp given a supportive home environment.

I also would be a bit put off by 'rough', tbh. What I want in a school- like all of us I'd assume!- is a good enough standard of teaching, reasonably well behaved and well disciplined DCs with reasonably supportive parents who all support the school ethos.

The word 'rough' doesn't imply those things to me!

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Blu · 23/09/2008 13:26

ah, yes, 'rough'.

IME schools can be v happy, and good, and have a v wide mixed intake...but what many parents want is a school that does not have 'rough' children. Over and above the actual quality of teaching.

Talk to parents who actually have children in the school, and visit.

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singersgirl · 23/09/2008 13:21

Leadership is 'good', obviously, not 'goo', which sounds very messy .

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OrmIrian · 23/09/2008 13:20

I don't think that could happen could it teslagirl without it showing up dramatically in the SATS. Ofsted shows results at end of KS2 does it not?

I am basing my confidence in DS#1's school (secondary but principle is the same) on the fact that it has good teaching and a fantastic head and improving results. The intake is quite alarmning TBH and the value-added is high. In that position I am hoping that a reasonably bright child with supportive parents is going to thrive.

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singersgirl · 23/09/2008 13:11

Our school has just been OFSTEDed and there is a massive emphasis on data to show standards, progress and value-add. This can be very different from the 'feel' of a school. Mind you, I think a school won't get Outstanding unless pupils are happy and learning well, and leadership is goo.

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bobblehat · 23/09/2008 13:11

Like others on here, I'd find out why people don't like it. I know someone who's dd goes to an 'outstanding' primary school, but she was thinking of taking her dd out due to the fact she felt too much homework was given.

What someone finds unacceptable, you may see as an advantage. And remember, ofsed reports are only a snapshot of what the inspectors saw on a couple of days

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MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 23/09/2008 13:01

TeslaGirl - very interesting!

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teslagirl · 23/09/2008 12:14

OFSTEDs do what they say on the tin.

For example, a local secondary is described as 'Satisfactory'. Local lore has it that the school is AWFUL. Well, when you read the OFSTED, the report is correct. We have to read these things for what they are.

Example: YR 7 maths- 'Good'. The teacher laid out clearly the teaching objectives of the lesson at the beginning. She used several different ways to illustrate her lesson; she extended the more able of the children and used alternative teaching methods for the less able. She then questioned the group to ascertain what they'd learned.

All sounds 'good', doesn't it? And it surely is- BUT what if the lesson she was teaching 11 year olds was basic addition skills? 7+11=?. The DCs at the school enter with 'a skills base much below that expected of similar children nationally'. SO the school is trying its best with a 'difficult' catchment.

So our lesson is that, as OFSTED states, the school is doing as well as it can be expected within the boundaries of the intellect of its intake. But that doesn't mean the intake is any less likely to be a product of its deprived, neglected home environment.

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AbbeyA · 23/09/2008 07:37

Ofsted isn't always a help. A local school has just got outstanding for leadership, this is because the Head is wonderful at paperwork, but they didn't realise that she has no people skills at all. It isn't a happy school.

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seeker · 22/09/2008 21:31

My ds goes to a "satisfactory" school, with a very mixed catchment. I chose it precisely because of the catchment - I don't want my children growing up entirely in a middle class bubble (they live in one of those all the rest of the time!)

If you like the school, it feels warm and friendly, the children are happy and the teachers are nice, then go for it.

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myredcardigan · 22/09/2008 20:42

You've had lots of good advice on here.

I have taught in a couple of graded outstanding schools. One truly was fab in every respect the other was, IMHO, awful in every way other than SATs results and ICT provision. No way would I have sent my children there. Horrible stiffling exam obsessed factory.

Speak to parents who currently have children there not those whose kids went there 10yrs ago (as another poster said). Place a lot of emphasis on how you feel about the Reception class. Always a good yard stick IMO.

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pointydog · 22/09/2008 19:51

To have your decision influenced by teh schools' position seems odd to me. So obviously this is going to be a personal choice and one that only you can make.

I am irritated by your comment about the estate with the bad reputation. I assume that's where you think the 'roughness' come from.

You are making lots of assumptions without seeming to knwo anything. Go and find out.

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mrz · 22/09/2008 19:44

go with your own instinct

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critterjitter · 22/09/2008 17:55

I'd try and talk to the 2 parents who removed their children from the school.

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