Devonshire House School

[viio]

Hi just looking for opinions as to how hard it is to get in half way through the year. How is the teaching staff at this school and the atmosphere? Are children genuinely happy? Thanks

[Tiredmumofthreekids]

@Dodgeitornot

@Tiredmumofthreekids was this a pre-prep by any chance?

@Dodgeitornot nope i was referring to one prep. Id rather not name and shame though as my experience is not very recent .

[Dodgeitornot]

@Tiredmumofthreekids

@Dodgeitornot nope i was referring to one prep. Id rather not name and shame though as my experience is not very recent .

No no, I didn't expect you to. I was just curious as I know a pre prep people rave about on here and I know 2 people in real life who have had awful experiences with it.

[headofenglish1995]

Dukes Education isn’t even private equity funded 😂 The founder talks very openly about how the business is funded. The main investor is the university pension fund and then of course they use bank loans to support bringing new schools on and do big facilities projects like they’ve just done at Devonshire with the new building for Y6-8. Anyone you ask at Dukes is super open and happy to explain how it works and be transparent. His email address is easy enough to find - email him! Happy to put my hands up and say I work for one of their schools in the same area. Our school went through a really difficult period before they took over and I only have positive things to say about what’s happened since then. It’s like a whole new school and the children and staff are happy. There’s so much misinformation about the company and how it’s run, we get so many comments about it from parents constantly and I truly can’t keep seeing these threads and not say anything.

[Coronateachingagain]

Dukes Education IS a private equity company. They don't have just some debt, they have A LOT of debt, like any PE company. They are funded by big vampire squid banks like Goldman Sachs. The story he spins about being funded by the university fund etc is all very nice but make no mistake, he is there to make money and he WILL sell in a few years probably once he has got Kneller Hall at steady state and he is able to command higher fees in his West London Schools.

You can be a customer of one of their schools, but go in with your eyes open.

They are a business above all.

I wrote a post last year:

"Does this link work? Look at this profile and his list of deals (he was just the lawyer)

www.cadwalader.com/professionals/matthew-smith#

So Goldman Sachs and Macquarie are financing them and from companies House you can see HSBC has been doing or at least involved in the property financing.

This is a classic PE company and profits will always be first."

[ParentOfToddlers]

So there are 2 distinct points of view here.

Positive: Dukes turn around struggling school, great experience of teaching and environment, don't believe it's private equity funded, management very open. Funding structure not paramount, "small nurturing charitable" ventures can also have sub-optimal results.

Negative: Dukes is funded by "vampire squid banks", "the story he spins", "he WILL sell in a few years", "command higher fees", "classic PE company and profits will always be first", "escaping taxes", "no parents at my PR firm send their kids there".

While the factual truth about funding is likely in the middle (Dukes likely use a range of funding sources), I'm astonished by the language of the negative reviews. Epithets that come to mind are vociferous, spiteful, scaremongering. It puts me off when contributors have to resort to this tactic.

Devonshire House is a large school of its kind. If anyone actively involved, parents or teachers, have had an awful experience pre or post Dukes, during or after their involvement, I am waiting to hear from them. So far, the only first hand experiences I've heard are positive. They align with my own experiences, and therefore I am absolutely delighted to send my own children there.

[Coronateachingagain]

@ParentOfToddlers opinions are opinions. You being a parent too, are in support of the school. I respect that.

Facts are facts though. They are first of all a business. With a lot of debt. Owned by PE money. Funded by banks and equity that will take care of their interest and are not altruistic. And by the way, highly doubt the dodge taxes, although of course they have complex structures in place which help minimise taxes (just like any PE company would have). If you want to check for yourself, check Companies House and the myriad of affiliate companies and parent companies past and present attached to their main holdings.

On the school, Devonshire was never a top school before Dukes either, per your enquire below. That is well known and the jury is out on whether it will get better under Dukes or not.

[roses2]

Out of interest why would someone pay for a non selective private school vs going to state? I can understand selective private schools where the average child is smarter than the average state but I really don’t get why some parents prefer to spend money on non selective private schools rather than send their child to a free state school and invest the money for their future house deposit or university fees.

[viio]

@roses2 there are many reasons and only if you/your child has experienced it, it may be difficult to understand.

It is not so much paying v non paying school but what environment you see your child in, are they happy etc. we all have things that are important to us as parents eg happiness, academic attainment, social etc so many factors to include. For some academic achievement comes first and they brush off mental health and pressure, for some mental health is above everything… and so on…

so what I am really trying to say is that I am one of those parents that have moved my children out of state, into non elective. We started off in a state school very happy, had a number of years until Covid where all was great then Covid hit with cuts and everything that come into state education way and sadly we were left with no option but to switch. When your child is already close to finishing primary it’s difficult to just put them into selective private school so there was not much option. Nonetheless we are so happy with the choice that was kind of made for us by not much option.

one of my children went private top school from 3y all the way to 18y - the school was so pressured and it was awful. Many children had serious mental health issues (mine was luckily very academic gifted and totally fine) but they watched friends go through awful time. I always said that my other children would not be exposed to that.

not everyone’s experience is the same. Ultimately we all look for what we think is best for our children with so many many varied factors included in those decisions.

[illiterato]

The problem with for-profit schools is that there are just more hands in the bowl. In a charitable trust model, distributions are not permitted, so asssuming no debt, any excess of fees over costs can only be reinvested in the school by way of facilities, bursary funds etc. No-one owns a charity. In a for profit model there are owners and often also creditors ( creditors can also exist in charities though). The owners are looking for a return on capital and this is taken out of the surplus so instead of being reinvested, it’s paid out. Therefore, all other things being equal, you do get less for your money in a for profit model and they do tend to have to go big to get the economies of scale to make the investors an acceptable return.

I’d disagree with the argument that schools run as charitable trusts are businesses. Yes, they need to remain in the black, but there are no payments outside of the charitable trust in terms of dividends. No one can sell the school to make money for themselves.

[preppingforlife]

Whichever one of Dukes funds purchased the school is at max 10 years. Assuming when it got bought it was a fresh new fund and they bought it in its infancy - they have 10 years to improve the financials (increase revenue, increase margins (ie reduce costs or increase fees)). At the end of the fund's life, they are obligated by their investors/docs to sell the school, ideally for a profit, if they do all the improvements around the financials/growth correctly.

I wouldn't want a school with an owner who needs to sell BUT, they will certainly work hard to make the school better, more appealing and more in demand while they own it. PE is not necessarily bad!

[Coronateachingagain]

@preppingforlife

Whichever one of Dukes funds purchased the school is at max 10 years. Assuming when it got bought it was a fresh new fund and they bought it in its infancy - they have 10 years to improve the financials (increase revenue, increase margins (ie reduce costs or increase fees)). At the end of the fund's life, they are obligated by their investors/docs to sell the school, ideally for a profit, if they do all the improvements around the financials/growth correctly.

I wouldn't want a school with an owner who needs to sell BUT, they will certainly work hard to make the school better, more appealing and more in demand while they own it. PE is not necessarily bad!

They will make the school better "for them" in the sense that they will maximise ENITDA and will have a great growth story ready for when they sell. That may not be good for children or parents for that matter, they will not make the "schools" better they will make the "business" better.

Spot on the previous poster, indeed they have a lot of debt that used to be funded by EQT Credit but it looks these guys got refinanced by Goldman Sachs and Macquaire, and I would not discount at all they increased the debt burden too. Maybe they got some money out for themselves already?

Such is the business world. Do you even think they put some thought on quality of provision when they were providing the financing? It was only a check on the box. They were looking at the numbers and more schools bought in West London will allow them to increase fees because they are cleaning options left.

[ParentOfToddlers]

I do wonder where the rage comes from. Do the likes of @Coronateachingagain, @illiterato and @MarigoldP think they are providing a public service by repeatedly educating parents on how private equity works? Do they resent parents who send their kids to schools run as businesses? Possibly they think they know better than thousands of duped parents? Another theory is they want to denigrate what they see as an unethical, immoral or disruptive business model. Less altruistic, perhaps they see themselves as superior by rejecting these establishments? Claiming the moral high ground must feel sweet.

But what irks me is the non-specificity: the ethos or value of a school must change when management or business model changes. The truth is many parents don't care how a school is funded even when they know all the facts. They want their children to be happy and well educated, and find that these theoretically inferior institutions do a superb job. Respect that.

[headofenglish1995]

@Coronateachingagain Bit suspicious that you seem to have commented on every thread about every Dukes school in London. Do you have a vendetta? What's your actual connection?

[Coronateachingagain]

Lots of friends all around london with Dukes. None of mine there. I am west London where Dukes is. I actually don't endorse Alpha or Cognita either or any of the private chains bought out by PE money. Chain of schools, restaurant chain, all the same on the spreadsheet. All the same. Just that they are not as much around where I live.

[Coronateachingagain]

@ParentOfToddlers

I do wonder where the rage comes from. Do the likes of @Coronateachingagain, @illiterato and @MarigoldP think they are providing a public service by repeatedly educating parents on how private equity works? Do they resent parents who send their kids to schools run as businesses? Possibly they think they know better than thousands of duped parents? Another theory is they want to denigrate what they see as an unethical, immoral or disruptive business model. Less altruistic, perhaps they see themselves as superior by rejecting these establishments? Claiming the moral high ground must feel sweet.

But what irks me is the non-specificity: the ethos or value of a school must change when management or business model changes. The truth is many parents don't care how a school is funded even when they know all the facts. They want their children to be happy and well educated, and find that these theoretically inferior institutions do a superb job. Respect that.

You deflecting to the ones with opinions different from your own? Just a question. Each to their own, if you want to spend your money there, go ahead, other won't.

[Evita74]

I have two boys at DHS and the thrived academically and socially. The new Headmaster is a game changer for the school, we could see the improvement as soon as he arrived. Very good results at 13+ for the boys, 11+ for the girls as well.

[Raavee]

We are in the process of moving from US to London. We have two children 11 & 8. Last minute school shopping got us offers from Devonshire house and Fulham prep. Any insight into these schools would be helpful.
How is the diversity in Devonshire? We are of Indian/Canadian origin. We want a school that is culturally diverse and inclusive.

[GoldersGal]

Every single thread about a Dukes school ends up with random posters defending Dukes. From experience, parents are not impressed by Dukes. It's very suspicious.

[Dodgeitornot]

@GoldersGal

Every single thread about a Dukes school ends up with random posters defending Dukes. From experience, parents are not impressed by Dukes. It's very suspicious.

I don't understand this though. Dukes has so many schools under it. It's like a MAT but private. Surely the schools all differ? Heathside and Devonshire for example. Two very different schools! As far as I know, Dukes owner also owns Cavendish education and they have incredible schools that provide for kids who's needs just cannot be met by most state or independent schools.

[Evita74]

I can totally disagree, we have children at the Devonshireshire prep, the Headmaster is making great changes and kids are very well prepared!

[ParentOfToddlers]

@Raavee

We are in the process of moving from US to London. We have two children 11 & 8. Last minute school shopping got us offers from Devonshire house and Fulham prep. Any insight into these schools would be helpful.
How is the diversity in Devonshire? We are of Indian/Canadian origin. We want a school that is culturally diverse and inclusive.

I would estimate ethnic/cultural background of around 25% European, 25% Asian (mixture of South Asian and East Asian), and of course plenty of children from mixed cultural backgrounds. From what I have seen, open days / tours / etc, the school reasonably well reflects diversity around north-west London, which is all you can expect. I am of Indian origin, didn't choose DH because of the diversity angle, but it was certainly reassuring that it caters for the local/regional community.

[ParentOfToddlers]

To clarify, we did choose DH but not for any reasons relating to diversity.. each year and class will naturally have its own make up.