Disgruntled parent accusing us of fraud

[PMP3]

Hi

Thanks for reading this, I’m totally stressed out.

There’s a parent who’s very upset her DC3 didn’t get into the same school as her DC1+2 (out of catchment, where admissions favours in catchment before siblings out of catchment). She’s basically tried to pick holes in everyone else’s applications as she things she’s number 1 priority in the waiting list. She’s targeted and reported, we think, several people challenging various points as fraud such as time spent at each parents not being correctly disclosed and a few for temporary addresses.

We fall under the temporary address group she’s targeting. We moved into our previous rented property in October 2020, having sold our old house (about 10 miles across the city). We had been buying, but the purchase side of our chain collapsed and as we knew we needed to leave our old home to be living in the area we wanted to settle (where I grew up) we still sold and moved into rented accommodation. We immediately started looking to buy again and had an offer accepted on a house closer to the school. We thought this would be exchanged by the cutoff date for applications but it wasn’t, so our old address was used for the school application. We got into the local school and since then have completed and moved in to the new house, closer to the school.

It didn’t cross my mind that we could be seen as doing anything wrong here, circumstances dictated we had to rent and with buying closer to the school I didn’t even consider this as an issue. I have kept the admissions authority up to date with our move already.

Is there any way the place could be withdrawn? We’ve moved closer so would be higher priority to when we originally applied, and surely if our application was reassessed we’d be top of the waiting list even if our place was withdrawn?

Sorry for the wall of text, this has just really stressed me out in an already stressful year.

[PineappleWilson]

We had a family in a similar position a few years ago. They got their eldest into their catchment school, moved out of catchment and presumed the head would be able to fenagle a place for her youngest so the siblings were together. He couldn't, and I'm guessing made nice noises to the mother but had no intention of attempting to do so. The youngest was offered their new catchment school, but neither child's school had a spare place for the other sibling. She ended up moving them both of another school, further away, as it had places for both of them. Would be interesting to know if the school in the next village has spaces for her older children, as that's the only way she'd be getting them all together, presuming the older ones are KS2 so easier to get into a new school.

[ElphabaTWitch]

She’s desperate. Two kids at one school and one at another. Can be a bit of a logistical nightmare re transport and timing etc with young kids. You’ve nothing to worry about. You didn’t make the rules. I’d probably be fighting it too if I were her. Just doesn’t seem fair but they have to draw a line somewhere I guess.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

There’s a difference between fighting it and accusing everyone of fraud, stressing them out by thinking they might lose their place.

Fortunately the LA will have very little time for malicious time wasters.

OP there isn’t any other address you could have applied from. She cannot seriously be suggesting that you apply from a house that you sold months before the deadline and we’re no longer living in.

[themalamander]

@ElphabaTWitch

How is it unfair? Schools are very clear about admissions guidelines. This school was clear that siblings came at the bottom, so all catchment kids get priority. The mother still chose to apply for her oldest, knowing that even if there is space that year, there might not be the following years and she cannot bump a catchment kid.

She was lucky to get the first 2 kids in. This year, there isnt safety as there are too many catchment kids. She knew it was a possibility but she chanced her luck. Its unlucky, but not unfair.

[themalamander]

Just caught OP's last couple posts. So this year it's notthe catchment kids stopping her. It's out if catchment siblings. If there are so many of them then the school cant fit them all in and will use the rest if their criteria to order them. Again, it's therisk you take with out of catchment schools.

[CaveMum]

@diddl

If she's out of catchment & the school prioritises catchment, how on earth has she managed to get two kids in?

This year our village school (2 form entry) has admitted children from up to 10 miles away to start in Sept 2021. However as there are currently an extra 500-odd houses being built in the village it is very unlikely that anyone outside of the village will get in in future years, so there will be parents who end up in the situation where they have one child in the school and a younger sibling who cannot get a place as our area also prioritises catchment over siblings.

[Username96441]

I’m confused about how and why she knows details that were on your application forms?

[Serendipity79]

You've done nothing wrong OP. You applied from a rented address in catchment and you've now bought a house in catchment. The LA will see the chain, they'll also have done their checks. Their checks are quite through in respect of placement fraud - which usually consists of someone renting a house short term when they dont live in catchment in order to obtain a place. They then move back out of catchment once the place is secure and you haven't done this.

I applied for an out of catchment secondary school for my daughter 5 years ago, on the basis that we were buying a house in that catchment, but we were renting out of catchment, waiting for it to be built. I had to produce documentation to prove the purchase. When it came round to allocation we got a place, but the LA made it clear that they would recheck when we completed the purchase that we had definitely registered for council tax etc so they do thorough checks.

I'm a governor at my children's primary school and they've had to turn down 3 families this year who have siblings in school but they're out of catchment - its just the way it is - and its obviously frustrating to have kids in different schools but you take that risk if you aren't living in catchment.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I agree you haven’t done anything wrong because you used the address you were living at on the application. It doesn’t matter that it was rented because lots of people rent houses. School applications don’t require you to OWN the address you put on a school application, just that you actually be LIVING THERE.

However, some people do rent to commit fraud. What they do is they rent a home in catchment and then NEVER MOVE IN but stay at their old house out of catchment and use the rental address on their school applications. Maybe this woman thought you’d done that.

So you don’t need evidence of your chain collapsing, just evidence that you were in fact living at the rental home when you made the application.

[AliceMcK]

Where you in the new house by the the time places were issued, if so I don’t think you did anything wrong especially if you were keeping school admissions up to date. They take into consideration things like this.

[Triffid1]

@PhillipPhillop

Whilst you haven't done anything wrong you can see how frustrating it must be when someone from out of area starts renting in catchment a few days before the application deadline and so snaps up a place that is now denied to a local resident. I think you can understand their anger to a certain degree.

I don't see the frustration at all. Why would it be frustrating that someone moved into the area, to live, and therefore accepted a school place?

It IS frustrating when people move in and rent for six months then promptly move out of catchment again. Technically, they have the right, but you can appreciate the frustration for locals. But OP didn't do anything of the sort and absolutely has the right to move areas and, knowing she wants to move, to move in time to ensure she gets a school place.

OP, the only way you are being unreasonable is in even worrying about this at all. You applied legally, were 100% honest, and got a school place accordingly.

[admission]

There are two separate issues here.
The first is whether or not you have done something wrong in your application, have gained a place because of this action and the LA could then remove your place. The second issue which is not directly connected to the first issue is whether this woman's application for a place at the school was handle correctly, was unfortunately not given a place at the school and now whether she has a reasonable case to go to appeal with.
This woman does not have a case to go to appeal blaming you and everybody else as the reason for not being given a place, she only has a case that splitting up the family to two different schools might be a reason for an admission appeal panel to be given a place. The other point that she is completely missing is that even if she could prove that you or anybody else has "cheated" to get a place at the school does not mean that they automatically get the place, the person at the top of the waiting list will be given the place.
In terms of whether you have done something wrong, then that is for you to know, not this woman. The LA will only remove the place if they have clear evidence that you have used an address that you child was not living at when you applied for the school place and you have not followed the rules. The information you have posted would appear to say that you have done everything that was required of you.

[harknesswitch]

As long as you put your actual address where you were living at the time you filled in the form, then there's no issue. You were honest, you didn't put a false address down so no harm done.

[VodkaSlimline]

Surely if this woman is reporting multiple families the LEA will eventually write her off as a vexatious complainant and disregard all her reports?

[YoniAndGuy]

Why are people so completely unable to read?!

OP made school application on previous property and GOT IN.

Then she moved CLOSER to school (and assume she does not mean out of catchment, as she says - if reassessed we would be higher UP priority list).

It doesn't matter whether it was the old rented or the old owned. They put THAT address where they were living at the time and got in.

They have kept council up to date with moves.

New move is even better re lists.

There is no problem here.

[Viviennemary]

Sounds like you did commit fraud if you put down a previous address.

[EssentialHummus]

Sounds like you did commit fraud if you put down a previous address.

She didn't!

[PMP3]

@Viviennemary

Sounds like you did commit fraud if you put down a previous address.

I didn’t commit fraud, I put down the address we were living in at the point of application (the rented property). It just happens that this was a property we only lived in 6 months, while we were desperately trying to buy nearby and because we had sold our old house.

I advised the LA when we moved to our new bought house (the one we’d been trying to buy since October last year) and this new property is closer to the school and in catchment. If we had applied from this property we would also have got in.

We applied from the correct addresses, and in fact were more than a bit miffed that the sellers of the new house held up exchange past the application date because of the very slight chance that we’d not have got in at the rented house but would have at the closer purchased house.

I can see how this could look to be fraud if a ‘computer says no’ type system is used, but assuming they would speak to us I could provide documents going back over a year (and costing many thousands of pounds......) where our plans to buy various properties fell through with no fault on our side.

[Lougle]

@PhillipPhillop

Why? She took the risk, when she put her first children in a school out of her catchment area, that subsequent children wouldn't get in. Surely children in that catchment area must take priority?
Or, she applied for her eldest in her own catchment but no places so offered out of catchment, got a later sibling place but now can't get youngest sibling in! This is what can happen when out of catchment siblings are lower down the over subscribed list. A bit of sympathy if this is the case

My LA now has a 'displaced sibling' clause. If child 1 was allocated an out of catchment place, then subsequent children are treated as in catchment so they aren't disadvantaged.

[bridgetreilly]

So long as it's actually where you were living, there's no fraud. And you were not temporarily renting in catchment but then moving out of area later. The council will not find anything wrong in this, so long as you've kept them up to date with your addresses. People are allowed to move house and still send their child to school.

The other parent is clutching at straws.

[PMP3]

@admission

There are two separate issues here.
The first is whether or not you have done something wrong in your application, have gained a place because of this action and the LA could then remove your place. The second issue which is not directly connected to the first issue is whether this woman's application for a place at the school was handle correctly, was unfortunately not given a place at the school and now whether she has a reasonable case to go to appeal with.
This woman does not have a case to go to appeal blaming you and everybody else as the reason for not being given a place, she only has a case that splitting up the family to two different schools might be a reason for an admission appeal panel to be given a place. The other point that she is completely missing is that even if she could prove that you or anybody else has "cheated" to get a place at the school does not mean that they automatically get the place, the person at the top of the waiting list will be given the place.
In terms of whether you have done something wrong, then that is for you to know, not this woman. The LA will only remove the place if they have clear evidence that you have used an address that you child was not living at when you applied for the school place and you have not followed the rules. The information you have posted would appear to say that you have done everything that was required of you.

Thank you for the reply.

I don’t believe I’ve done anything wrong, we used the address of the residence we were living at when we applied (and had nowhere else we could have lived).

I think I just overworried myself that because it transpired we were only in the rental a short time it looked as though we were using a temporary address (as we probably were, as we always intended to buy in the streets surrounding and didn’t have any intention of living there indefinitely as we were trying to buy immediately after moving in, as we didn’t want to be off the property ladder too long). The rented property was a necessity due to us having nowhere else to go and we purposely chose a house to rent where we wanted to buy.

If we were investigated I would hope common sense would prevail and our commitment to the area is evident.

[MzHz]

People who commit fraud to get their kids into a school they’re not in catchment of usually rent a property in catchment purely for the address to apply for the place. They don’t live there, they often never even move in.

Relax @PMP3, you know you’re not doing anything wrong

[MzHz]

You actually live in catchment

You were living in catchment when you applied

I’m assuming this parent is STILL living out of catchment

I hope if you are directly challenged by her that you tell her that Mumsnet said YANBU and she’s being a CF for challenging you in anyway

[CadburyCake]

“ My LA now has a 'displaced sibling' clause. If child 1 was allocated an out of catchment place, then subsequent children are treated as in catchment so they aren't disadvantaged.”

Same here - if you are allocated a non catchment school, and only if you put down your catchment school but were unsuccessful, siblings will count as in catchment for that allocated school. A not very publicised rule that you have to know about and draw admission authority attention to when you apply, but they do try to be fair. You can’t design a system that pleases everyone and prevents anyone gaming, but this seems fairly close.

I do feel sorry for people where the rules change between children, the prioritisation of catchment children over out of catchment siblings is a recent change here, but it doesn’t sound like this is the case here. Just someone who gambled and lost.

OP she might well not even actually do half the stuff she’s mouthing off about. People rant when they’re upset, doesn’t mean she’s actually going to bother writing up dozens of complaints about families. It’s probably a lot of hot air.

[PMP3]

@CadburyCake

“ My LA now has a 'displaced sibling' clause. If child 1 was allocated an out of catchment place, then subsequent children are treated as in catchment so they aren't disadvantaged.”

Same here - if you are allocated a non catchment school, and only if you put down your catchment school but were unsuccessful, siblings will count as in catchment for that allocated school. A not very publicised rule that you have to know about and draw admission authority attention to when you apply, but they do try to be fair. You can’t design a system that pleases everyone and prevents anyone gaming, but this seems fairly close.

I do feel sorry for people where the rules change between children, the prioritisation of catchment children over out of catchment siblings is a recent change here, but it doesn’t sound like this is the case here. Just someone who gambled and lost.

OP she might well not even actually do half the stuff she’s mouthing off about. People rant when they’re upset, doesn’t mean she’s actually going to bother writing up dozens of complaints about families. It’s probably a lot of hot air.

She possibly won’t pursue, but is still on her pedestal nearly 3 weeks after places were issued.

Our LA does have the displaced sibling rule (if you applied for catchment but given elsewhere) and it’s the yard gossip that she’s always lived where she lives now and was just very lucky to get first child in.

Thanks for the reassurance everyone, I do feel much more relaxed now.