Notting Hill schools - Wetherby/Norland/NHP et al

[2yearoldbattler]

Hi MNers - we are slowly starting to think about where to send DS who will start next September. Would love to hear views on both the major Notting Hill preps/pre preps as well as state schools (other than Fox as we are not in catchment there).

DS has confirmed places at Norland, Wetherby (pembridge Square) and NHP where we have paid the deposit (cough) to keep the option open. We would consider state if there was a good option. DS also has a little sister so would like views on pembridge et al as she’ll be right behind him and would like a solution that works for both kids without overly complicated logistics.

TIA

[MMmomDD]

OP - what you are going through is what I have seen many of my friends go through before a first child starts school.
And it depends on the type of personality one has.
One type of parent looks at the school results and uses that as something to guide the selection. They look at the schools in a somewhat pragmatic way.
The other type looks more at the ‘feeling’ they get from a school & HM when they visit.
It’s scary to chose the first school as at this time it seems that this choice will somehow define your child’s future. I saw many many parents stress about this choice.

What my many years in this educational system told me is that there is no one way to chose. And our stress about the choices is linked by our desire to control something outside of our control.

Parent can chose the most academic school and find their kid doesn’t manage there. Or they can chose a school where they got the best ‘feeling’ and heard lots of happy parents - but their kid might have a bad time there.
No amount of due diligence prior to joining will be able to tell you what experience your kid will have.

All of the above applies to the specific set of very good schools we have here in Kensington. All of them are at least OK and very good on many many dimensions.
Both your kids can and will do well in either of them.

So - make the choice that works for you and your family at this time and re-assess as you go long.
NHP is a good coed school. If it seems like the school you want to take your kids to - go with that feeling.

[2yearoldbattler]

MMmomDD do you have a view on Notting hill prep?

[MMmomDD]

And the other issue with school they goes to 11 - if your boy has a 13+ place is to find a school to ‘hold’ him for Y7-8.

[MMmomDD]

Boys 11+ pre-test happens in mid-Fall. It has a math, writing, and for some schools a science section.
Girls 11+ happens in Jan. And it has changed in format. Some still have a Math and English. Other - Consortium introduced a new format with a larger VR/NVR focus.
And girls math papers from Latymer and St.P are harder than boys pre-test papers.

Boys then sit additional school specific exams later in Y6.

So - no - it’s not pretty much the same to prep for 11+ pre-test and girls 11+.
It makes no sense to try to complicate matters and make exam prep less targeted by mixing two groups applying to different systems with different timelines.
It just doesn’t work well.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t like this system. I am just pragmatic about what it is.

[organiccoffee]

@newmummycwharf1
It is not all clear how the CE is going to phase out, no school has set out detailed plans yet. Regarding recently news on W and SP, they scrapped CE provided the boy is coming from an "approved" prep school that follows the CE curriculum and produce a good headmaster report confirming the boy has completed the required study of CE. Just the "exam" is scrapped, which is good IMO, but the "study" stays.

[JoJoSM2]

MMmomD, yes of course St Paul’s is an appropriate school for some boys and definitely a good choice if they’re naturally very bright and can get in with reasonable amounts of prep that doesn’t impact their lives.

However, 13+ is in reality 11+ these days as boys take the tests and get conditional offers in Y6, exactly the same time that girls have their 11+ exams. The exam format varies a little from school to school but it’s quite much of a muchness. So prepping boys for 13+ vs prepping girls for 11+ isn’t any different. Common Entrance is now getting scrapped as it has been just a bit of a formality in recent years.

Even Eton has their 13+ offers out in Y6 these days so that’s now 11+ in reality (again a bit of a formality of a test later to make sure the boy’s standards haven’t dropped).

[MMmomDD]

Jojo - I never said that parents of prep boys chose not to apply at 11 because they fear competition from state.
11+ at St.P and W intake was until very recently only available for state school boys - to accommodate state schools structure. At W it’s now available to others too.
However - private boys schools in our area aren’t structured to prep boys for those exams - AND - there are very few places available anyway - one class full.
So - most parents chose to do pre-test instead and apply for the 13+ where 60-70 new boys come into W, for eg.

1.5-2hr daily homework for 4-5yos is certainly not the norm here. Not at Wetherby, nor at any of the top girls preps.
Neither is extra couple of hours daily at term time after school is a norm.
Most kids are too tired for that and their brains won’t absorb much information anyway.
Are there parents who pressure their kids and push them too much - sure. Does it change their kids trajectory - maybe for some, definitely not for others.
And more importantly - is that the only way - no. My kid got to St.P without tutoring and with some extra work that we did together that by no means was excessive. And so are a lot of other kids. It can be done.

My point about hot housing was a different one. It’s not only about the amount of material covered, it’s also the pace. And bright kids enjoy the pace that challenges them. While other kids can struggle. So for some it will be an appropriate place, for others they will feel ‘hot housed’.

[JoJoSM2]

Ok, fair enough if parents choose not to apply for schools at 11+ but 13+ for strategic reasons. MMmomDD, not sure why you'd fear competition from state school children at 11+, though, if you think preps go at a faster pace.

Hothousing is a thing. I know of schools giving 4-5 year olds 1.5-2h homework a night. Parents hothousing is a thing too. I have met high numbers of parents who had their children working for a couple of hours a day in term time and several hours a day in the holidays. Certainly at the expense of other things as there weren't enough hours in a day. Generally, the children wouldn't have time to play during the week at all as whatever time they were awake was filled with studying and co-curricular activities.

[MMmomDD]

OP - hot housing is a scary world people use. And I think you imagine kids in these top prep preps as some sort of robots studying most waking hours.
It isn’t at all like that. Is that what your nephews did?

No young kid can sustain that level of pressure over an extended period of time. So - while it’s true that in these boy/girl academic preps kids go at a faster pace in the early years compared to, say, state schools - it doesn’t mean that the kids don’t have lots of extra-curricular activities and running around.
It means that they are in smaller classes, with more focused teaching, and more involved parents helping with homework. Wetherby is a school that knows how to teach little boys, they do it year after year.
Same with girls preps, most of which in this area select on ability.
So - my kids, for example - never felt pressure or stress from school despite being in what others might have considered a hot house.
And we have always had a fair amount of time for other things in their lives.
Many kids like that pace - mine certainly did and enjoyed going to school and learning new things, while having lots of fun still.
That said - there are obviously kids that don’t manage at that pace - and that becomes clearer by Y1-2. Good thing about this area is that there is a lot of mobility - so sometimes kids leave pre-preps and move to co-Ed for a gentler pace.

@JoJoSM2 it is possible that the intake at StP and W for boys has changed. These days - they have a very small intake at 11+ meant mostly for kids from state schools.
And both of them have sizeable intakes at 7/8 and then 13.
Also - at W - private schools kids Can apply at 11, but they can’t then re-apply at 13 if they fail. So it makes no sense to compete for a handful of places at 11, as the odds are better at 13.
So in the area where OP is living - academic boys from preps do NOT do 11+. Other than Latymer.

[newmummycwharf1]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/29/britains-oldest-school-exam-scrapped-amid-diversity-drive-private/?WT.mc_id=e_DM1106840&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Loy_Dig_Tri_LiftigniterReg45&utmsource=email&utm_medium=Loy_Dig_Tri_LiftigniterReg4520190930&utm_campaign=DM1106840

[newmummycwharf1]

Also aren't Westminister and St Pauls scrapping the CE for entrance anyway. So it will just be the pre-test and school specific interview presumably? It would mean co-ed could well work - both sexes would be prepping to exit at the same time

[2yearoldbattler]

Oh I’m not worried and I don’t think we can really tell what kind of academic (or not) he’s going to be yet - plenty of time for that!

[JoJoSM2]

OP, to be fair to Westminster, they do have a fab co-curricular provision. My experience is with 11+ not 7+ but for the older children, I could see straight away if someone is cut out for one of these very academic schools (very bright, loved learning, usually a competitive personality). However, a large number of children applying for these schools are not quite there and do need tutoring/hot housing. Maybe your boy does or maybe he doesn’t.
However, there’s also a lot to be said for schools that have a mixture of bright and average children. Many of them are brilliant at looking after the able ones and get them 9’s and Oxbridge offers etc The environment is unlikely to feel nearly as pressured or competitive and often better for children’s self esteem.
So don’t despair if you don’t get Westminster (but I do realise it’s upsetting not to get the first choice school).

[MMmomDD]

OP - don’t believe sweeping statements of ‘entire class was heavily tutored’ is heavily tutored, etc.
People use these to justify their own choices. My kids weren’t tutored, for eg. I did extra exam practice with them on my own. And people, most likely, thought mine were heavily tutored too.

[2yearoldbattler]

I clearly haven’t thought it through properly at all jojo . I hate the idea of hot housing kids at ages 4/5/6/7. My son loves reading and books but he’s also obsessed with music and dance and climbing things ( 🙄 ) and running around like a loon in the park. It just seems so intense to put them into these environments at not even 5 years old.

[JoJoSM2]

If you'd like your son to be at Westminster/St Paul's/King's from 7 anyway, then you could as well put him in the most hot housey prep prep you can get into + do extra at home.

[2yearoldbattler]

Oh and if he were to do the 7/8+ I have always vaguely thought that we’d try to get him into Westminster precisely so he didn’t have to do it all again later. Obv he’d have to be pretty academic for that tho!

[2yearoldbattler]

Geronimo that’s certainly what parents with older kids tell me. I figure if they have to be tutored anyway they might as well have a nice time at school!

[JoJoSM2]

Or if you fancied exploring single-sex all-though schools, then GDST have lots of options for girls.

I’ve only ever tutored children for 11+ but imagine that with 7+ parents wouldn’t want to take any chances so I’d expect it’s no different.

[Geronimo8]

In our London pre-prep they were all heavily tutored by the middle of year 1. The head will tell you differently. They all do. But it's utter rubbish and they know it. I wish they'd just be honest. If they are pre-prep feeding academic preps almost all will be tutored be it by parents or a professional tutor.

[JoJoSM2]

If we're looking at day schools near central London, which ones don't take boys at 11+? I honestly can't think of any (just a handful of boarding schools).

OP, if you'd like coed when your children are little followed by single sex, they you probably can't avoid the hot housing and stress of 11 or 13+. If you're open to co-ed, then Harrodian could be a good shout as it's probably quite commutable for you? Whilst it's considered less academic, it does teach children to achieve 8's and 9's at GCSE + secures Oxbridge places.
I'd be bothered by lack of proper grounds and sporting successes but don't want to be projecting if that isn't the top of your list.

[2yearoldbattler]

Oh and Josuk I do like the fact that they can now stay at Wetherby the whole way through as a backup. It is looking like DS is moderately bright but isn’t everyone these days?!

[2yearoldbattler]

I am not convinced about the “prep” aspect of the pre/preps - my nephews are all at Wetherby pre prep at the moment and the eldest has just gone through the 7+ and the entire class was heavily tutored outside of school. So I don’t think you can avoid it really.

But much food for thought on entry and exit points, I shall do some more research. Thank you!

[Josuk]

There are almost no schools in the area where OP lives that takes boys at 11+. So if OP goes that way, she’ll have to find a school for two years until 13+ place starts.

I have a lot of friends at Wetherby prep prep. And on balance most are quite happy.
All of the boys are working towards exams, so its normal for them. The curriculum is organised with that in mind, so front loaded vs, say state schools.
Parents are far more stressed at those exams in my observation.
I’d say the extra tutoring and pressure people mention is more common for kids in co-Ed and non pre-preps - who decide to try 7/8+ that their school aren’t set up for. And it’s worst for people who decided to go state to 7/8+ and then transfer to private.
That’s where the gap in material covered by Y2/3 is vast and parents trying to go that route really put their boys under enormous stress.
I’d say that if your kid is in Wetherby - you won’t need to do much (or anything) above what the school does. And it’s a blessing.
The benefit of Wetherby is that they have the prep that goes to 13, and also opened senior school too.
So - as a backup there is an option to stay there all the way through.
(Transfer exams are still there but it’s still less stressful than coming from outside)

In my observation of all my friends with both girls of 11 and boys of 13 - those exams are FAR more stressful. Both kids and adults are under stress. Kids are in midst of (pre)puberty, emotions are all over. And for boys - pre-tests and then individual school specific tests are spread out over a long period of time. Then boys get offers that they sit on for a long period of time and others sit on waiting lists for 1-2years as conditional offers are given up to two years prior to entering Y9.
It’s a convoluted system.

[Geronimo8]

Personally I wouldn't go the pre-prep route if I could avoid it. The kids are less aware but the tutoring and prep if 5/6 year olds is just brutal. Some, especially boys, will still be very immature at that point and won't be ready to sit proper exams. Watching the parents of boys trying to prep them really wasn't pretty. I'd choose a prep and go for 13+ (for a boy). You'll have a far better idea of your child by then and so will the school. This extra two years in prep can be the making of a boy. Ideally I like co-Ed in primary but the system really isn't set up well as girls and boys don't tend to transfer at the same time. If you do go for a co-Ed ores choose one that ends in year 6 and everyone does the same 11+.