Times Table - new government testing

[Blythe13]

My son is hopeless at times tables, he just can't remember them and I'm worried about the new government testing. Any good advice as it's making him feel really stupid and he's not.

[Iceweasel]

I am incredibly glad that my DS did not have to go through this.
In year 5 they did 100 times tables questions in three minutes and he only ever passed the two times table stage. He is a natural mathematician but he is not quick and he hates repetition. It hasn't held him back, he was near the top of his class in maths all through primary, and is now near the top of the top set at Grammar school.

[duckling84]

Likewise, my Y7 child’s targets are set from his Y6 SATS from last year and will stay with him for the next 5 years - they’re nothing to do with his school now.

True but again targets are still assessing the teacher, not the child. Yes his results determine which set he is placed in but if the secondary feels this is incorrect they will move him. And if he doesn't achieve the desired target by the time he sits his GCSEs- it is the yr11 teacher who has to justify why, not your son. All these assessments are just assessing teaching. The GCSEs they sit at 16 are the only tests we parents should concern ourselves with.

[Feenie]

But the targets the school are obliged to make sure he reaches are set from his Y6 results.

[AuntieStella]

I think that there is a direct benefit to the pupil in having competent teachers and we'll run schools. And if one way of checking that is the odd standardised test, then I think that's fine.

And certainly preferable to the 'secret garden' approach

[duckling84]

Which is why we should scrap them the targets don't work, well not for the very low ability anyway. They are set targets that are impossible to achieve so automatically set the child up to feel like they've failed.

Times table testing though which is what this thread is actually about? Pointless stress for the child. That will not go to the secondary school for setting targets. Yes times tables are important but I personally think understand the concept of times tables and how to calculate them is more important then learning them like a parrot.

[noblegiraffe]

I also have a maths degree. Do I know my times tables off by heart? No not all of them. I have to calculate them every single time. I can do it very quickly so no one notices.

So you would pass the test. As a secondary maths teacher it’s not the bright kids who are good at maths who don’t know their tables by instant recall but can work them out in a pinch who are the problem. It’s the ones who don’t know them and can’t work them out, or who slow finger count. It’s not particularly helpful for someone who is obviously very good at maths to say ‘well it never held me back’, because it gives the impression that it won’t hold anyone back if they don’t know them. It absolutely will.

[Feenie]

I can't actually get wound up about this one - like the Y1 phonics check, it might actually ensure schools teach properly.

Originally, it was planned for Y6, which would be ludicrously late. At least the Dfe listened on this for a change.

[Pratchet]

Way too late. Things went wrong when they starting waiting for kids to understand number before teaching times tables.

[Feenie]

Times Tables are taught in Y2, which is about right, I reckon. Do you think that's too late?

[Iceweasel]

I don't see how this test will tell the primary teacher anything that they do not already know.
They will know which children are slow at quick recall but good at maths and won't be held back. They will know which children should really learn their tables or they will struggle even more at secondary. Children don't need yet another test.

[user789653241]

I agree with Noble. I have seen lots of people comment on G&T threads that they don't know times table off by heart but really good at maths. They are the exceptional people, who have other great strategy to calculate quickly enough not to memorise times tables.
For normal children, I think it's vital. And like PSC, I think this test actually benefit children, since school are forced to make sure the children learn them by the time they take tests.

[duckling84]

nobel but at age 10 I don't think I would've passed the test because although yes I am good at maths, being able to work them out with speed and learning coping strategies didn't come till I was in secondary.

And I do agree with your point but I do also work in secondary maths, but I work with the bottom sets - the ones aiming for grades 1 and 2. I've worked with kids who know their times tables of by heart but have no concept of what they mean. And let's be real honest here - is there actually any career out there that these kids will do that will not allow them to use a calculator? And everyone has a calculator to hand on their phones now.

[user789653241]

Iceweasel, same as PSC, I think it will benefit the children who are struggling. School are forced to put effort for them to learn and pass.

[Feenie]

I can't tell you how refreshing it is to be a Y6 teacher and have endless who already know their tables.

So much time saved. It's brilliant.

[Feenie]

A class, not endless! Autocorrect is nuts this morning.

[Feenie]

Afternoon!

I give up.

[Pratchet]

Yes I do, they should start in reception . I mean really they could start chanting and singing the songs before that, and nursery.

[Iceweasel]

irvineoneophone, but schools have finite resources and teaching time. I think those schools who will be able to target extra assistance to help struggling children pass the test, without negatively affecting other learning, would do so anyway. In other schools this may result in teaching to the test like what has happened with the SATs.

[Feenie]

Teaching to the test just means they'll know their tables!!!!

[noblegiraffe]

I've worked with kids who know their times tables of by heart but have no concept of what they mean.

So? Understanding doesn’t always have to come before fluency or ability to use a concept, and often in maths it doesn’t.

And I’m surprised that you know students working towards a grade 1/2 who have instant recall of their tables, it has not been my experience.

[Pratchet]

I agree with Noble. Kids who get maths will have a lightbulb moment about what times tables mean and what they are for, and they'll already know them which is great. Kids who don't get maths, well at least they'll know their times tables.

[Pratchet]

Plus who knows how many kids think they're bad at maths because they can't do fractions, simple algebra, pie charts and graphs etc when really, it's just because they don't know their tables? They all depend heavily on knowing your tables. If they knew them, they could manage all that other stuff and not be crap at maths after all.

[Iceweasel]

I mean excessive repetition as a whole class, at the expense of the rest of the curriculum, that could potentially lead to children 'switching off' and losing interest in maths.

[Pratchet]

That's what they always say, but it's dumb because they introduce times tables repetition at exactly the age it will put them off. If they introduce it earlier when kids love copying and chanting,repetition , routine and copying songs, maybe they'd get somewhere.

[Pratchet]

I have no idea why they don't rote times tables as songs and rhymes, chants etc from nursery, ten minutes a day. Seems like a real 'well duh' question to me.