Unsupported SEN pupils taking priority in DD’s class

[Scamp48]

Just looking for some advice please from parents or even better from teachers on here.
My DD is a very young Y4, but even so managing to achieve above average results in maths and reading. Writing, and in particular handwriting, are more of a struggle.
Her class is Y3 and 4 combined, but even so, only 20 in total. There are two SEN children who have most of the teacher’s attention, one of these children has medical/special needs, and several phobias. The second SEN child’s behaviour has deteriorated since the arrival of the first SEN child. Neither child has an assistant.
My DD estimates that her teacher spends 40% of her time with these two children. If any of the middle-ranking children have problems in maths/English, they are pulled out of assemblies and given one-to-one’s. The higher performing children seem to be left to their own devices, and I’ve come to the conclusion that this academic year will have been a write off for my DD. At parents evening, I did say that I thought my DD could be stretched more and the teacher agreed.
The teacher is exceptional and totally in the right profession. She is in her second year of teaching and i don’t want my grumblings to be discouraging for her - I think she is fantastic at her job but has been dumped in the deep end! I went in this week to talk to the principal and feel I have explained things badly! In the meantime, my DD has a couple of instances where she didn’t understand work (unusual for her) and not only was not not picked up, but even when I I pointed it out, it still wasn’t followed up (the teacher just doesn’t have time when coping with these two high needs children). How to approach this and to instigate change for the better? TIA.

[redcollargirl]

As someone who works in this field, I am amazed that LA/Schools are not taken to court more often. IME huge numbers are not complying with the law on SEND - this impacts on the child with SEN, the other children in their class and the teacher trying to cope. In the end, society as a whole pays because we have individuals who have not realised their potential.

[Oblomov18]

This is so depressing. Seriously. But not surprising. I don't know why any of us are surprised.

[Coloursthatweremyjoy]

Well said Miaow - I have links with a service for people who have very serious disabilities. People who cannot live independently. The manger tells me that without exception the people who come in with everything in place, funding and services sorted. Are the people whose families fought for them for years. You know "those parents".

If it's such a battle to get support for people with such high needs it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that children in main stream schools are getting zilch.

[Coloursthatweremyjoy]

GnotherGnu is absolutely correct. This is a common L.A. policy but those policies are not above the law. IPSEA recently warned that there is a push by central government and LAs to reduce the number of EHC Plans given but parents should know that the law regarding SN provision has not changed.

You'd be amazed how many policies LAs use not to give adequate support to these children. None of them reflecting the law. At one time Sossen were printing them on T Towels to raise funds!

And the amount of times I've had parents tell me that their child is on a part time timetable or comes home early on a Friday because "he doesn't cope" but it's okay because the school agreed it with them...umm no it's not okay, in fact it's glaringly illegal. The worse thing being that they know that and so does the L.A.! Doesnt stop it being a widely used practice though.

[GnotherGnu]

It may be policy, but it very definitely isn't the law, and won't be upheld by the tribunal.

[Tomorrowillbeachicken]

It’s a England wide policy.

[Tomorrowillbeachicken]

The school can only get funding after first 6k has been spent by school.

[GnotherGnu]

A school now has to demonstrate that they have spent £6k per annum on a child before they can apply for extra funding in our county (and I think nationally).

It's unlawful for local authorities to operate policies like this. A child who needs SEN provision shouldn't lose out just because the school can't or won't pay out £6K, and of course it may well be that the child needs much more support but isn't getting it precisely because they haven't been properly assessed and no-one realises just how much help they need. By law the only criteria LAs should operate are those set out sections 36 and 37 of the Children and Families Act 2014; if they turn up at tribunal and argue they shouldn't have to assess because £6K hasn't been spent, they would be laughed out of court.

[GnotherGnu]

purplesquirrel, the statistics come from the tribunal. I'm sure the government finds them very inconvenient - they want to pretend that the system is working wonderfully, and a 90% appeal success rate in relation to refusals to assess shows the reverse.

[BubblesBuddy]

In some scenarios it is only the school who will fight! That was my point. If schools ask parents, and the SendCo throws in the towel, some children have even less chance of the help they need. All decisions should be evidence based. It’s the only fair way to do it. However some parents are better at getting evidence than others but this should not put their children at the head of the queue.

[MissWimpyDimple]

I couldn't agree more. 32 children in daughters class. Many are recent arrivals who do not speak English fluently. No assistant.

Most time spent with lowest achievers, they are also often out for extra small group sessions. Upper middle to top pretty much left to get on with it. Also best behaved and highest achieving are paired with the newcomers.

Nothing wrong as such, but no pushing or progression.

Can't wait to get her of that school.

[Charmatt]

A school now has to demonstrate that they have spent £6k per annum on a child before they can apply for extra funding in our county (and I think nationally). Given that basic funding for a primary child is £2747 per annum, some schools are really feeling the squeeze and are unable to provide support staff in the way they might have done a few years ago.

Parents of children with SEND have to fight exceptionally hard for an EHCP which should give them a better chance of additional funding, but doesn't always. Even so, several authorities only grant an EHCP for the most complex needs, so it's often a case of evidence gathering for years before one can be gained, if at all. In our county there is a massive deficit in the HLN funding budget, so EHCPs are even harder to get, as the LA knows that it can help schools access that funding pot. No matter how much some 'parents are on the ball' it may not be that an EHCP is achievable!

[CatkinToadflax]

Probably this has been addressed before but I must take issue with the idea that a child with "SEN" who has had a TA from reception has parents who are "on the ball".

I'm afraid this phrase made me prickle too. We used to live in the leafy lanes of BubblesBuddy's LA and attended a very leafy, naice primary school. My DS has had a Statement (now an EHCP) since before he started Reception, so in that respect we were lucky. He had a fabulous full-time 1:1. But it's not because DH and I were "on the ball" or "invested" - it's because he really desperately needed one! Even then the school was pretty crap and refused to accept that DS was autistic and had multiple other issues going on. They repeatedly insisted he was "fine" when he was falling further and further behind and being bullied horrifically. He's actually so very autistic that he now attends a specialist residential ASD school. We had to fight and fight for this too. It's not just the parents, it's the school too that need to fight for additional support for children with SEN, and the willingness of the LA to agree to providing that help.

[BubblesBuddy]

The law is not entirely black and white though is it? There are opinions and one of the opinions is that of parents. There are others who have an input. In my experience, all schools want extra help for their SEND children and do not expect parents to do it. However, in the leafy lane areas where parents are better educated and have the time, energy, understanding of complex issues, money and means to fight for their children, they do. Other children have to whistle in the wind. They do not have the luxury of clued up parents. In fact some parents can barely read. There has long been a parental lottery regarding spending on SEND and I have no doubt that MN users are actually in the heirarchy of getting help for their children. Others are less fortunate. If you can fight, coherently, spend days doing so, you may well get somewhere. If you cannot, heaven help you. Most schools will try and do their best though.

When I was working, I have seen marginally SEND children with well educated parents wanting far more school support than was necessary. This inevitably took money away from more deserving children. Often these children were clustered in the least leafy lane schools, but guess which schools complained the most, and loudest, backed up by parents, about their mild SEND children? The leafy lane ones of course.

Why does my largely rural and well heeled LA have a statement rate of 3.8% and in other LAs it is 2%. If you ask many parents, they would say that the LA is penny pinching in the extreme as it has always been near the bottom of the tables on AWPU spending. It spends a lot more on SEND though, but many people would say it did not. The numbers say otherwise. The parents who can fight their way through all of this get more. Always have, always will.

I will no doubt be extremely unpopular now!

[Coloursthatweremyjoy]

Probably this has been addressed before but I must take issue with the idea that a child with "SEN" who has had a TA from reception has parents who are "on the ball".

My son has had identified special needs and associated behavioural difficulties from reception. This is our 3rd school , I have fought for extra support every step of the way but the schools wouldn't or couldn't get their acts together and compile evidence. Or insisted he was"fine" while complaining how hard work he was, go figure.

This year I told the SENCO that I would apply myself...she couldn't throw me the file fast enough. We are a little over half way through the 20 week process to get him an EHC Plan that will provide the support he so obviously needs. The LA are by all accounts likely to turn me down...then I'll appeal...then 2 days before the tribunal they will probably back down. It's like this in a lot of places.

He is in year 6.

I have mused during this process that a great way to save money would be for LA's to stop spending 6 weeks (to the day) gathering evidence and having meetings in order to decide whether on not they will comply with the law.

[Theworldisfullofidiots]

zzzzz I'm sorry my user name offends you. I don't think SEN children are idiots and I don't think anything I've said has at all supported your view that I do.

I'm not in the habit of changing my user name and since I happen to think that the world is full of strange people making v odd decisions I'm not changing it.

Re top up funding it may depend on the LA you are in. In my experience rural LAs struggle.

[purplesquirrel1]

Gnother gnu are you a senco?
Are these statistics that you are quoting from the government? The same government who produce statistics that argue against the teacher recruitment crisis?

[Capelin]

Gnother, I know those figures are right as I’m a school governor. Shocking, isn’t it

[GnotherGnu]

Capelin, you need to ask questions about the figures you have been given for your school's SEN funding. If they have a number of pupils on the SEN register then, unless they have all arrived this year, the school should be getting way more than £13K for them. I would wonder whether the school isn't in fact applying some of that funding elsewhere.

[GnotherGnu]

Norest, it may not be your experience, but presumably you accept what the statistics demonstrate? The facts about appeals that succeed or are conceded by local authorities are incontrovertible.

[user789653241]

zzzzz , I don't think you can really say that it works well at your school, so other school should be able to do the same.
Even in the same school, different needs are met differently.

[BubblesBuddy]

If a LA has funds for top up Send funding they are not devolving all the funding to the schools. They are keeping some back for difficult to resolve cases. Typically this can be for adaptations to buildings and special expensive equipment. No two LAs will be the same so comparing them is a bit futile.