Whole class maths - Yrs 3-5

[bluesnowdog]

Our school has just scrapped maths sets in Years 3 to 5, so the class is taught as a whole, with the children able to freely chose one of three question levels as they see fit. My son was top set maths, is choosing the hardest levels, but there is no scope to go further. Historically children could go further with the curriculum, have extension classes etc, this is no more! Does anyone else have whole class maths, and a child that used to be top set, and any views on how they are finding it, I worry that boredom is setting in as they can no longer move on if they have grasped a concept fully.

[user789653241]

At our school, great, experienced teachers are leaving and replaced by NQTs. They are great and enthusiastic, but I have to admit, they lack in experience, and seems to follow the school(SLT/HT) and don't go above and beyond. My ds's HT had ranted on news letter few years ago, that reason why they didn't get "outstanding" Ofsted was because of few minority issues. They are told they weren't stretching able. Figures.

[Lurkedforever1]

Plus even if a new head wants to keep good, experienced staff, if the slt are useless then good teachers don't generally want to be a part of that, so if there are other options they are likely to jump ship themselves, and pave the way for less experienced staff.

Dd's school did have a mix of staff, and the only exception to good teaching was very young, but I suspect she would hardly improve with age.

Imo the reason it all worked was an experienced head and slt. Provided the school didn't end up in special measures they were only bothered about kids, not stats. I don't think a young, inexperienced head would have wanted to start a career that way.

I don't know about maths being easier to cater for norest I suppose it depends on the teachers own maths ability/ knowledge. Most of dd's teachers weren't that way inclined, and the odd time someone else hadn't been able to provide work (staff illness or similar) she had a few well intentioned, but far off the mark challenges. Purely because they found it hard to pinpoint her understanding, and most of what she did at primary wasn't defined around a fixed level of the curriculum so no real guidelines.

Of course not an issue, but I imagine if the school hadn't been a team then those otherwise excellent teachers would have spent a lot of time trying but being off target.

[Norestformrz]

“All the older teachers I know are competent, senior staff with responsibility and happy.” And that stops them being frozen out by a new head who wants a cheap staff they can control?

[Feenie]

Bubblesbuddy, do a search on MN. This practice is rife, and you're very naive to think otherwise.

[BubblesBuddy]

No school can be staffed "mainly by NQTs". It is simply not possible. If older teachers have left, that is up to them, but if you think they are "frozen out" how exactly does that happen if they are loving their jobs and competent? They would have recourse to an industrial tribunal for wrongful dismissal if they were forced out for no justifiable reason and they have unions to help too.

A few just do not accept that they have to assess children and show their children are making progress so just do not fit in with modern day teaching. So should a school be let down by teachers who just do not want to change? All the older teachers I know are competent, senior staff with responsibility and happy. The schools want their expertise and I am not naive .

[Norestformrz]

Dared say I’d not be impressed with either answer.

[dazedandconfused12]

I asked last year if DS1 could do more challenging maths this year and the 20+ years in the job teacher said no its not possible they have to stick within the curriculum etc. Fast forward to this term. We have NQT and DS1 is much happier as he is doing yr4 rather than yr3 maths...

[Norestformrz]

I’d also say it’s much easier to cater for children in maths than in many other subjects.

[Norestformrz]

I know far more schools staffed mainly by NQTs than those with a mix of experience. It’s quite easy for a head to freeze out older staff and it’s very naive to imagine that only incompetent staff are pushed out.

I know one head (rapid progress only in fifth year of teaching) asked all experienced staff to step down for younger teachers.

[BubblesBuddy]

Many schools do want experienced staff! It is total rubbish that they don’t. How do they get rid of expensive experienced staff? Unless a teacher is incompetent they stay teaching. Many schools do have expensive staff budgets for exactly the reason that they have experienced staff. 30 years in teaching is only someone in their early 50s for heavens sake! Hardly old and past it!

I think catering for the super bright in maths has always been a problem. It’s not new. It’s not really a budget issue either. It’s about the maths co-ordinator doing their job and ensuring all children are catered for. Very bright children have special needs too and these should be met. Less confident teachers can be helped and the Maths co-ordinator should be aware of which children need extra in depth work and be making sure they get it.

Whole class teaching can be very slow for some children and I am not a huge fan. However at our school we have hard, harder, hardest and Herculean grades of work. We have fantastic maths practitioners who do push our brightest, although we rarely see gifted children. When asked, the Maths co-ord thought about one child in 5 years. We are in grammar county Bucks. We also can get help from the Maths dept of a local grammar school. Can the primary schools that don’t have the resources, or expertise, link up with the Maths dept of a secondary school to access resources? It works here.

[bearstrikesback]

Thank you for the pointers to the bar method. Much more intuitive and easy to progress to algebra from there too. DD (6) is an outlier and we are trying to provide the stretch at home as there is whole class teaching and the extension activities (when able to be provided) don't seem to be that stretching yet. We are hoping things will improve after half-term as they all have been tested now.

[JennyBlueWren]

Interestingly on a recent course we were told that setting only benefits the middle ability set. Top set do slightly worse in setting and lower set does much worse.

[Norestformrz]

Part of the problem is that schools don’t want expensive experienced teachers so they don’t have a fabulous knowledge source to draw upon. I learnt a great deal from experienced staff over the years (much more practical than I learnt in university) and could pick their brains when faced with a child at either end of the achievement scale.
I’m inclined to believe that ITT is partly responsible for teacher burn out as many try to continue with unrealistic placement exceptions (you can’t be an outstanding teacher unless you plan to nth degree) when they start teaching full time.

[user789653241]

It's not just what they are actually doing, imo. It's more that the teacher understand the child and willing to help, which makes us parents happy and appreciate.

Ds's year2 teacher was fab. Ds's target was something like,

"To solve deeper and longer problems involving those with more than one answer."

While others give him something like(in later years),

"To understand place value, 10th, 100th, 1000th."
He bloody know them already, how can it be his target!!!!

[cantkeepawayforever]

The thing is, a teacher with more than 30 years' experience has seen wave after wave of Maths teaching come and go. Statistically, he or she may have taught 1 or more '1 in 1000' pupils, and 10 or so '1 in 100' pupils. Their 'back pocket' should be full of ways and means to differentiate for true outliers.

The difficulty is making it possible for teachers with 1 or 2 years' experience under their belts to do this - because it is not fair that only outliers taught by very experienced teachers are differentiated for - without increasing the workload for those inexperienced teachers at that point beyond what is humanly possible.

Also, as primary teachers are generalists, making it possible for teachers of all abilities in Maths in their childhood to teach all abilities of Maths to the children they teach can be tricky. It is obviously harder at the outset of a teaching career, to teach 'high end outliers' Maths if you were a 'worked hard for a pass grade' mathematician yourself. I was myself a 'high end outlier' in Maths, and have children who are firmly within the top 10% or less, so I find that job fairly easy in Maths - but have had to work extraordinarily hard to manage it in PE, say.

[Kokeshi123]

The teacher I’ve met who is excellent at this has been in the job more than 30 years and so far no burn out. It’s possible

Sure. But when I talk to teachers back in the UK, the number one reason for teachers quitting (even more than behavior issues) is workload. The profession needs to be sustainable.

[Bearstrikesback]

It was in a y3 textbook and I jumped to thinking substitution and algebra - which seems a bit challenging for 7? Trial and error would work but 84 pens also seems excessive for each child in a class. I will look at the bar method as I suspect that this what they are looking for. Thank you!!

[catkind]

can't, glad I'm not too far off target! I also didn't think of them doing it by trial and error.

[cantkeepawayforever]

X posted. Bar model method would also work - my fault, as that's not one of my 'natural' personal methods though I teach it all the time!

[cantkeepawayforever]

Bear, I think it depends how you want the solution presented.

If you want it presented algebraically
84 = bk + bl +r
bl = 6r
bk = r + 4

and solved by substitution, then it could easily be in secondary.

If you are happy for children to solve it using practical equipment and trial and error, then KS1 (probably no Reception, due to the size of the number 84, though an able Reception mathematician with enough pens and enough time would enjoy the challenge).

A KS2 child might well represent the problem through tabulation, and working systematically through the possibilities, staring with 1 red pen:

Red: 1 Blue: 6 Black: 5 Total = 12 etc

[catkind]

You might get more responses if you start a new thread bear, people usually like a maths puzzle question!

I'd say pretty easy if they've been taught to use that Singapore bar diagram method, but there's a little thinking required. Maybe Y3 for a bright child? Or Y6-7 if you're wanting them to use actual algebra, I don't think it's usually taught before then.
(Disclaimer: not a teacher)

What year has it been set for?

[bearstrikesback]

A bit of a diversion but I just wanted to canvas opinion on the following maths question,


There are 84 black, blue and red pens in a bag.
There are 6 times as many blue pens as red pens.
There are 4 more black pens than red pens.
How many black pens are there?


What year would you think it appropriate for?

[Norestformrz]

The teacher I’ve met who is excellent at this has been in the job more than 30 years and so far no burn out. It’s possible

[Kokeshi123]

I agree in theory but it's fair to say differentiating to that extent takes excellent, experienced teaching. Not to mention the heavier workload.

I agree. And at the end of the day, we benefit from good teachers staying in teaching as a long-term career, rather than burning out from sheer exhaustion after a few years, so that teaching becomes a revolving-door profession.

I say that as someone who is a parent and not a teacher (apart from teaching my own kid and teaching a few kids at a weekly Saturday school).

[user789653241]

This website was introduced by secondary maths teacher noblegiraff
back in the summer. They have done 4 weeks pilot programme and my ds really enjoyed it.

I just realised their site is back up again, and we haven't checked it, but I think it's worth having a look, if interested.

parallel.org.uk/