Why do primary school children have sit in group tables?

[user1495443009]

What's the porpuse of sitting kids in primary schools on group tables where not everyone face the board ? Also why do they need to have working partners? And why is always a boy and a girl? Normally sitting a good child with a naughty one.

Please teachers provide some enlightenment of the reasons for doing this. I am sick that my daughter always has to sit next to one of the naughty boys who doesn't listen and fiddles all the time.

Is this the same in all the primary schools?

[ilovesushi]

I am getting really fed up with my DD being put next to very fidgety distracting boys. She is a very mature for her age, calm child so I can see the rationale in terms of keeping order in the classroom, but she struggles with reading and writing and could do without. Her current partner waves scissors in her face, rocks her chair and is generally a nightmare. She has taken to wearing ear defenders in class because of him. I've asked for her to be moved but nothing has happened. Been promised things will change after half term. I remember sitting with friends in junior school. Sure we had a chat now and then but it made school much more pleasant.

[IamImportantToo]

RUFUS
Not really.** It was a humorous twist on the OP. Anyway, MNHQ have told me the OP is now banned so dont worry about the pretendy-daughter.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

iamimportant

User they have probably sat your daughter next to him to try to encourage her to be more sociable and less judgemental.

Thats a bit shitty...no need to attack the child for the actions of the parents

[kesstrel]

Schools are keen to adopt the latest thinking, and justify it with all kinds of research data... right up until the next fad comes along and it's suddenly all forgotten in favour if the new thing.

It seems to me that most of the fads that come and go are based on one particular educational philosophy, and the reason they go is because they mostly don't work - precisely because they are based on that philosophy, rather than on solid evidence. In fact, often they contradict the evidence we do have about things like cognitive load, the advantage of lots of practice, and of explicit modelling and explanations, for example.

[user789653241]

Yes, totally agree with you, soap.

[soapboxqueen]

We did it right through ks2 because it wastes lesson time to be faffing about writing dates and lesson objectives.

[IamImportantToo]

User they have probably sat your daughter next to him to try to encourage her to be more sociable and less judgemental. I should imagine they are very concerned about her friendship skills. It can be hard to fight against the home influences.

Dont worry about her holding back the boy. I am sure he realises that she is just as important as him despite being different.

[user789653241]

soapboxqueen, I know. They do that in ks1. But in ks2, they make children write it down. Maybe part of handwriting practice?

[brilliotic]

The Y1 class I volunteered in had to write the 'long' date at the beginning of every piece of work. Being 5 years old, they did this by copying it from the White Board, and it could take them a loooong time especially at the beginning of the year. Those poor kids who had to turn around and strain to see the next letter, copy it down, turn around again, lose their place, turn and strain again, ... took even longer - especially if by looking straight ahead they could instead follow their friend's conversation at their group table - and sometimes hadn't finished copying down the date when the allocated time (15 minutes? 20 minutes?) for their task was up, so they never even got to start.

Copying down a date is not a huge thing so the teacher might easily feel 'they don't do much copying from the white board anyway', and you might say spending 15 minutes straining your neck is not very long in the big picture, however if it means 100% of the time you were meant to be doing some maths or writing is replaced by copying and straining (and being distracted), then it does seem rather ... inefficient.

[user1495443009]

Kokeshi, you keep hitting the spot but I think schools are reluctant to changes. It would be good if they try though. If you sit in rows you can talk to the two people next to you instead of having 5 children on the table to talk to which will cause more disruption.

I will check what sort of tables they have in the next open classroom. Perhaps they can't be arrange on rows.

[user1495443009]

Teacher has replied; ""sorry DD has not enjoyed sitting next to X and that he changes the sitting arrangement every half term and if a sitting arrangement has not worked he won't repeat it". Bless him. I hope not to complain for anything again this year. All the things teachers have to deal with apart from teaching.

I still think row arrangement will encourage better behaviour and they still can make small groups and work in partners is needed but did not mention anything about it to the school; I will leave to them.

[soapboxqueen]

We put labels in their books with each objective on

[user789653241]

One thing they seems to do at ds's school is children need to write down
the objective of the lesson in their work book in ks2. I don't know if other school does that. But at least few times a day they seems to have to copy something off the white board.

[soapboxqueen]

I agree with knobbly I've never had children looking at the board for any length of time. Certainly not while in their seats.

[knobblykneesandturnedouttoes]

Irvine- renovations in school are crap. I hope he's more comfortable now. To be honest I'm surprised by the amount of time it seems kids are looking at the board anyway. Doesn't sound like my experience at all.

[knobblykneesandturnedouttoes]

The only time I've seen kids have to spend much time looking at the board is during handwriting lessons. It must differ from school to school, but at our school they simply don't spend much time looking at the board. And when they do, they are told to get themselves in a position where they can see comfortably. If children are hurting their necks they or their parents should be speaking up, I don't think a teacher would want a child to suffer if they knew about it.

[user789653241]

knobbly, it was just a horrible room!
He even had lovely partition wall or something sticking right next to his chair where he kept bashing his head and knee.
I would have said something if it was under normal circumstances, not a temporary measure during renovation.

[user789653241]

Soap, but they do at ds's. Teacher's desk is in front of the classroom, by the whiteboard. During instruction/explanation/what ever, she writes on the white board. Than children move from carpet to their table to do the work. Children backing the white board need to twist their head/neck if they need to see the board. I doubt they would turn the chair around every time they need to see it, while doing some work at the table.

[soapboxqueen]

Why would they have to twist away from the table to write something in their books? You're also assuming the teacher is standing in the same place all of the time or that children are working from the board.

[Kokeshi123]

How are they supposed to write things down and refer to their textbooks and notebooks and other equipment, though, if they have to twist their chair away from the table?

In the "paired desks in rows" model, most often kids sit at their desks with their textbooks and notebooks in front of them. If the teacher is explaining number bonds or whatever, the students can look at him or her and then glance down and look at the pictures and demonstrations that are in the book, and write down anything in their notebooks that the teacher asks them to do. They can also use their manipulatives at the desk, with the teacher showing them what to do and correcting errors as he or she watches them. Because the teacher can also see clearly what the children are doing with the manipulatives.

The carpet thing: they can't write comfortably on the carpet and if they bring textbooks or maths equipment with them, it will be chaos with stuff spilling all over the floor. So they can't try out the things that the teacher is showing them on the spot. I have seen a lot of teachers doing phonics stuff on the carpet, and getting students to use mini whiteboards to do writing. I've used mini whiteboards now and then, but I don't use them much because they encourage huge/awful writing and funny pen grips.

It just seems like such a lot of awkwardness and hassle, merely in order to avoid putting desks in rows....!

[knobblykneesandturnedouttoes]

Irvine, of course I'm not saying he was lying!! I'm saying I've never known it, therefore it surprises me. Sitting with your neck twisted would obviously hurt. What I meant was, his teacher should be telling them to turn round or move their chairs. Or your child should hopefully feel able to speak up about his neck if this is t possible. In the classrooms I've worked in the teacher has always been mindful of the children's comfort. Sounds like in your sons case it was a shit layout in a tiny room though. And also there are many kids too shy to complain about things and put up with too much. I know I probably would've suffered in silence as a child rather than tell the teacher I needed to move my chair.

[Kokeshi123]

I never liked horseshoes, personally, because it's hard to move to groups if you actually want to. You have to drag eeeeverything into the middle, it is a complete pain in the bum. Rows are actually easier to bung into fours.

[Kokeshi123]

Of course teachers don't have to put kids on tables. It's not legally required or anything, sure. I think it's fairly obvious that this is normal practice in the UK, though.

I have heard that there are quite a lot of primary teachers who would prefer rows but know that they would get pushback from colleagues and perhaps parents.

It's seen by many people as being didactic and therefore bad. I'm thinking of those Victorian topics you get in primary schools, where the kids dress up and do a "Victorian" lesson, and the desks are in rows and the message is very much, "This is a cruel and heartless thing to do to kids; thank goodness we are all more enlightened now."

The odd thing about the UK is that primary kids do sit in rows.... on the carpet. So... (in the eyes of many British people) sitting in rows facing the teacher is Victorian/draconian if you have got a chair under your bum, but becomes OK if you have got a bit of carpet under your bum. Perhaps British carpets are magic, I don't know.

[soapboxqueen]

I've generally always used grouped tables because I've always done a hell of a lot of group work. Resources can't always be stretched across rows without causing management issues. Sometimes a room has been too small or there were not enough tables available. Sometimes the furniture was bought for group work and isn't easily used for rows. The older the children are, the more useful rows can be though I'd still use groups in year 6.

I have once made all children sit boy/girl and that was a group of year 8s and it was about splitting up friendship groups. Add there was a behaviour issue.

If your child isn't happy then speak to the teacher.

[Eolian]

To a certain extent, the table arrangement is merely a fashion in education. Secondary schools were very keen on arranging the tables in a horseshoe shape for a while. I teach secondary and a tiny bit of primary and would much rather have the kids in rows. It is much more conducive to good behaviour and concentration, but unfortunately viewed as old-faahioned (though I've seen a few recent articles where some fairly forward-thinking people have been clamouring for a return to it).

Schools are keen to adopt the latest thinking, and justify it with all kinds of research data... right up until the next fad comes along and it's suddenly all forgotten in favour if the new thing.