more able child paired with less able

[hibbledobble]

I know this is something that happens frequently at school, and has done for a long time. How do people feel about it?

I don't know if it's fair to put children in a quasi - teaching role, rather than having them focus on their own learning. Otoh I know that teachers are stretched.

[user789653241]

I do agree with your example of reading.
But maths, I think it's different. Why do you assume they don't have no understanding of "what they are", or "underlying logic"?

[Misstic]

... but is that what they are doing? Teaching the basics to the person they are peered with. I doubt it. It just does not sound like what a competent teacher would do or a good school would allow.

I'm interested in learning more about this peer to peer approach. I don't think they do it at my son's school. He is only in reception and I imagine this is typically done in year 1 plus? They all get on very well in his class so I think there may be value in them learning from and teaching each other.

[Misstic]

Irvine, for example many children can count to 100 at the age of 2. However they may not have a clue about how numbers work. Similarly, many may be very good at arithmetic but really don't understand the logic behind the sums, etc. It's just blind application of methods in conjunction with lots of practice.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

But then surely all they would do is pass the same thing on go who they are with?

How's that helpful?

[Misstic]

To answer your question more directly, the same can be said about calculating a circle, square, etc. If it is simply memorising the formulas without truly understanding the basis for the formulas (eg, why for all circles pie is the same) the racing ahead is a lot about memory recall and not solid knowledge of how maths work.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

All the more reason to ensure the extended teaching happens in class and appropriate extention work given as opposed to pairing up and hoping that one or both of the kids gets what's needed out the pairing and isn't either taught bad habits, or so bored they do the stuff in work books at home with no one to check they are understanding what they are doing?

[Misstic]

Giles, for the 'more able', I thought the point about peer to peer learning/teaching is for them to also test how much they truly understand what they have learnt. It also allows the teacher to check the depth of their understanding. Hence why it seems that for some it means 'slowing down'.

Of course, I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick but that's what I've understood so far.

[hellokittymania]

I have learning difficulties with math and really really struggled even with very basic concepts. When I was paired with another student who could explain and was also patient, it really helped. I have seen students bullying or teasing less able and was also patient, it really helped. I have seen students bullying or teasing less able to students though in my library students in my library though so I do think teachers need to supervise or really trust the child.

[user789653241]

Misstic, but we are talking about able children, who are ahead of others. If they are ahead just because they had a lot of practice without proper understanding, surely teacher would notice eventually?

[Gileswithachainsaw]

Bit if they possibly don't truly understand then surely all this happened is they have passed on their little "cheat" or memorised formulas to another child? If the chikd they are with is less able then they won't always know neigh to question it and ergo you have two children arriving at answers with no idea of how they got there

[Misstic]

Giles, I suspect that most of these schools use a combination of methods and not just peer to peer. I expect that they have other activities to extend the more able. If peer to peer is all they are relying and if there is no supervision and little input from the teacher (ie, that the two students are just left to get on with it) then I agree with you that it would be detrimental for all concerned.

[Misstic]

@ Irvine "... if they are ahead just because they had a lot of practice without proper understanding, surely teacher would notice eventually?"

I think that is part of what the peer to peer approach helps to flush out.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

I would hope so miss

I did wonder for some time that surely my friends spelling and punctuation issues were merely being covered up as being sat next to me she was able to ask me how to spell stuff. The teacher wouldn't have known from her work as it was spelled correctly.

I certainly never had any extra assistance to improve my knowledge of a subject because any group work was just signed by email equine with no evidence of who contributed what.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

Ffs

Signed by everyone.

I've only my had half a glass of wine and my phone is possessed sorry

[Toffeelatteplease]

Without a shadow of a doubt the one who gets the moSt out of it is the brighter student.

Beyond expanding the depth of their understanding , there is a massive amount of social and emotional learning that is possible. Frankly I often think the kids that don't appreciate the benefits "it's holding me back" style are absolutely most in need.

Learning to give and share knowledge with others. Learning to see another person's perspective and find alternative ways of getting to the same point. (Even if it does slow you down) Learning how to help someone whilst not taking over and still allowing them to make mistakes. Learning how to balance you needs against the needs of others and working out when you do or dont have the extra to give. These are all skills as valuable , if not way more so than the immediate task at hand.

It's about learning how to lead and take others with you.

If my bright kid came back and told me they ended up doing another kids work or complained that it was holding them back, I'd be pointing out that they actually hadn't succeeded at the more important task at all.

[Misstic]

for a moment I wondered at the phrase 'email equine' and committed it to memory to look up later.

Enjoy the wine.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

[Misstic]

Toffee, I agree.

[user789653241]

Misstic, I don't think we can come to true agreement. You were saying a lot of children can count up to 100 at 2 but don't understand the concept of number. How about the child who can count backwards from 1000 at 2, or even earlier?

[Gileswithachainsaw]

Learning to give and share knowledge with others. Learning to see another person's perspective and find alternative ways of getting to the same point. (Even if it does slow you down) Learning how to help someone whilst not taking over and still allowing them to make mistakes. Learning how to balance you needs against the needs of others and working out when you do or dont have the extra to give. These are all skills as valuable , if not way more so than the immediate task at hand

Please believe me when I say I don't wish to be goady or nasty here bit I do want to ask why does there always have to he some kind of greater good or bigger picture?

It's just sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I'd just tried to get on with my own work. What would have happened if I hadn't worried about monopolising the teachers time and taking away from other kids in the class. Sometimes I wonder what would have actually been if I'd just told my friend to go ask someone else as I was busy and didn't want to lose another play time catching up.

Sometimes I wonder what would have been if for one second I hadn't worried about how what I was doing was helping or hindering others or whether the teacher would appreciate me asking something he or she had already explained because I didn't understand or that because I'd been helping someone with something I'd missed what was said. I wonder if I hadn't been so worried about getting people into trouble by saying I'd not been allowed to really contribute to what was going or felt so stupid being paired with people who were clearly so much smarter than me and didn't need me fir anything whether I'd have had more confidence in myself or whether I'd have been stretched in areas and able to actually challenge myself. I wonder what would have happened if I'd been allowed to do the text book in the next stage up rather than be told no because it wasn't time to do it yet.

I have spent near enough my whole life doing stuff or not doing stuff because doing so or not doing so would impact someone else somehow or believing someone else was more worthy of it than I was or that there was actually a reason besides my assistance of less able pupils that I hadn't been allowed to do something.

Children should of course by all means be given access to a well rounded education which means more than just racing through levels

But it's also important that each child individually is given the chance to Go as far as they possibly can and achieve everything they are capable of achieving and sometimes that means concentrating on what you want and what you alone need from a situation.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

What I mean is I bet that the kids I helped spell stuff and write stuff don't even remember my name.

But I remember what I didn't get to do as a result of helping them.

[WateryTart]

Without a shadow of a doubt the one who gets the moSt out of it is the brighter student.

Just not true. I already explained why in an earlier post. Sometimes they do, other times they feel isolated from their other friends.

[user789653241]

Toffeelatteplease, I agree with watery!
And also with Giles.

It's doesn't always workout well.
Yes I agree, helping others may help my child gain something.
I was thinking one particular question. He was doing 49 x 49. He got the answer in few seconds. I asked him how did he do it, he said he did 50 x 50 - 50- 49. I didn't get it straight away, and had to check if the answer was right on calculator.
When teaching/helping others, he would be helping somebody like me, who isn't strong at maths.

Why do all the able children need to be a good teacher/explainer?
Just because you can speak other language, you can't all be a MFL teacher.

[user789653241]

49 X 49 happened about 3 years ago, when he was 6.

[mrz]

"He was doing 49 x 49. He got the answer in few seconds. I asked him how did he do it, he said he did 50 x 50 - 50- 49."

The next step would be explaining why that works

Why? because it shows understanding rather than mechanical calculation