Dramatic drop in KS2 sats results

[HalleLouja]

Would you be worried if the primary school your children went to school at had a really bad set of KS2 results?

The school had a meeting and they are putting changes in place. My kids are really happy there and seem to be learnings loads.

It is a one form entry school so that can distort things. I know there has been a new curiculum but the school has fared worse than other locally.

I am not hugely worried but lots of people seem to be and I feel like maybe I am missing something. Last year's results were fabulous and this year way below national averages....

[christinarossetti]

I wouldn't say it's 'flannel' to say that using percentage measures on small group can massively distort results tbh user.

In a single form entry school with a full class of 30 in Y6, each child's (unless exempted) will 'count' 3.33% towards the headline figures.

A handful of children just below 'expected' can make 15-20% difference.

Not saying that that's always the case, but using percentages on small numbers with a definite 'expected/not expected' boundary is less than a helpful way of measuring things sometimes.

[nat73]

TBh the small cohort is always used as an 'excuse' for poor results. Surely as an upside you also teach a small group so they should each get more 'teaching' (people often give this as a reason for going private) and you have a fair chance of getting more able as well as less able kids?

[HalleLouja]

mrz I get that but its a single form entry school and every other year they have had really good results. Like praised by the County results. I also think they had a mixed bag of pupils. When its a one off I think you need to look at the whole picture and not just one set of results. I am just hoping that the next head isn't too results focussed as that is not the type of school I want to send my kids too.

[HalleLouja]

To even.....

[mrz]

I'm not suggesting you do base decisions on one years results but that doesn't alter the fact that Year 6 is too late

[ScarletSienna]

Nat-small cohorts are generally more about one form entry than small class sizes so still can have one teacher to 30+ pupils just that the percentage one pupil represents is greater.

[ohforfoxsake]

In a small cohort one child can make a big difference. If the school could take an individual child out of the figures, an entirely different picture can be painted.

What bothers me is whether HTs will be put under so much pressure with results that they will give up on individual children

[nat73]

True - in ours case the cohort is only 12-16 so whilst 1 child is a bigger chunk of the cohort also children get a bigger chunk of the teacher!!

If we have a cohort of 16 and only 25% will pass this means 12 children will 'fail' and I really don't think this is acceptable if other schools can achieve atleast 50%.

[ohforfoxsake]

In a small cohort one child can make a big difference. If the school could take an individual child out of the figures, an entirely different picture can be painted.

What bothers me is whether HTs will be put under so much pressure with results that they will give up on individual children

[southall]

Some, perhaps many, schools used to cheat in KS2 sats.

I suppose with the new format a lot of these schools haven't figured out how to do i, yet!

Hence drop off in pass rates nationally.

[mrz]

They haven't changed that much ...it's curriculum content that's changed.

[bojorojo]

I really feel for you, nat. Any school with poor progress figures that then blames the KS1 staff for being too good needs a kick up the backside! This is the excuse to end all excuses! You are absolutely correct. The KS2 teachers should have built on that. The fact that they didn't should have meant alarm bells ringing way before Y6 results and progress. All schools found the new Sats difficult but didn't mess up
writing to this extent. It is not acceptable.

I think schools do not explain shortcoming to parents when they should. It is too easy to think no-one cares. It is even more important to tell parents what they intend to do to improve. It is never an overnight fix but if you keep parents in the loop it does mean everyone is pulling together.

The school does not need to know about tutoring but this cannot replace good teaching every day at school. You would need to do so much. Such a shame the other school has only 6 in the year group. Way too small for music and sport to mean much. Never mind friendship choices as she gets older.

Could you become a Governor? You seem to have Governors who accept what the Head says instead of interpreting the data for themselves. As a Governor you would also know what the LA Improvement Officer has to say and also whether the school's improvement plan is effectively tackling the issues. You would be monitoring it !

[nat73]

bojorojo I thought about being a governor but my husband said not to get too involved as I feel we already have invested a fair amount into the school, PTA etc. I'm not convinced the other parents / governors even want change so I think I would be a loan voice.

Its a real pain in the neck as she is happy and has a good year group size so its a real heartbreak to have to move her. I agree that tutoring cant replace decent teaching.

I would like to know what is in the improvement plan though...

[nat73]

Oh my, lone not loan!

[bojorojo]

The number of children in a cohort makes no difference to the progress of each child. The school should assess progress of each child regularly and if they have insufficient work to moderate for Sats then they have not been adequately taught. How do they know whether a child is progressing if there is insufficient work to assess?

Ofsted is not putting pressure on re results. This is why the measure is now progress!!! Progress is good if there is constantly good teaching - as nat has discovered! You may never get all children to the expected level but you can maintain their rate of good progress! This is what schools must demonstrate to Ofsted. Not the fact that a cohort of bright children all got more than 100!

[bojorojo]

It is possible for parents to ask for the minutes and agendas of GB meetings and the supporting papers. The improvement /development plan is a supporting paper and not confidential. Teachers names could be removed from it if necessary. It should be a costed plan and the success criteria must be clear and a date for completion. There should be copies in school.

[ScarletSienna]

Yes bojo but progress rates are still reported as percentage rates aren't they? So one child's progress in a small cohort makes more of an impact than in a three form entry.

[bojorojo]

Yes, but it can easily be the same percentage in a larger school. It is highly unlikely that a cohort of 90 has only one child failing to make good progress. In small schools the children are easily identifiable though.

[mrz]

Real school
Cohort of 3 each child equals 33% or 30children in the three form entry school

[bojorojo]

That is a very identifiable child and everyone would know who it is. Also I thought a tiny cohort was not reported publicly. Very damaging for the 33% child. Having said that, 66% these days is not bad!!!

[mrz]

What if 2 children fail to meet the expected standard? Or three?

[nat73]

I think if you have left than 6 kids the results are not reported on the DofE website so as not to make it too identifiable.
I totally understand that in smaller cohorts one child is a bigger percentage but there is also a belief that a smaller class size is a good thing. I think the smaller cohort is another excuse for the school to hide behind. Not every child can be dyslexic? And as I've said before how come there are no children in the top 5%?

[mrz]

They don't have to be dyslexic but they could miss the magic 100 by 1 mark quite easily under the new test system.

[mrz]

To be in the top 5% children would be working at GCSE level ...5 years early 🤔

[mrz]

If you have less than ten it's not included in the league tables but it can still bring the full weight of Ofsted down on your head