7 = ? - 9

[PotteryLottery]

How would teachers explain how to work this out to a Y1 child ?

I don't want to confuse DD with my method.

[letticehooyah]

Gawd, who'd phrase a question this way to a kiddie? Talk about prematurely confusing. The arithmetic aside, I'd use this as the basis of a more general 'different ways of looking at problems' unofficial programme.

[BlackbirdOnTheWire]

I've only skim-read, but I saw this thread earlier so I wrote out the question for DD (just finished Y1, she's still 5 though) and asked if she knew the answer. She said "yes, 16” and carried on eating her fish fingers. She told me "just is" when I asked why, so I asked her to explain to her 3yo DB.

She said "7 is what take away 9, which is the same as 7 and 9 make what?" and then she helpfully wrote out a number line for DS and showed him how counting forward nine from seven would give him the right answer too.

She seemed very confident so I can only assumed that they have looked at both methods (I'd not heard of the term 'fact families' before, but certainly the way DD talks about numbers, eg today "8x3 is 24, and so a third of 24 smarties is eight", makes it sound as though that's exactly what they've been taught).

I don't know that this adds much to the thread, but I was intrigued to find out how a Y1 child would approach the question as I wouldn't have a clue how I'd be supposed to explain it these days. Fortunately it seems I don't have to, it's been done already!

The Dragon Box app sounds interesting. Thanks to the PPs who mentioned it.

[Preminstreltension]

Ok I asked DS who is 5 so a very young y1. He said 72!

He could do it when I gave him an easier number bond though: 10 =? - 5 and then he could move onto the other ones. Will keep practising number bonds in various forms...

[JustRichmal]

I think it depends on the understanding of the child as to what method to use. I can see how a child should be looking at this as a number bond fact, but I would be using it also to introduce algebra, where x represents a box and you have to find out how many are in the box. So turn it into game.
In this case x is a question mark. So get a small box to hide 16 counters. (Or under a sheet of A4 will do just as well. The counters could be Lego bricks, buttons, counters from games). Tell the child if you take 9 out of the box you are left with 7. Put 7 counters in front of the child. Now the child has to "guess" how many are in the box.
You can do the same for adding sums or putting the box in different places in the sum. (So I start with 16, take however may is in the box away and am left with 7) I would start with easier numbers like 2,3 and5.
You can progress to putting the box on a piece of paper, writing a minus sign, then putting 9 counters, then an equals sign, then 7 counters.
Then on to drawing a box and drawing dots for counters. Then on to writing numbers and eventually replacing the box with a letter x.
Algebra will then be associated in their mind with a fun game of finding what is in the box.
I stuck to one method at a time with dd, but as she progressed, I moved on to drawing out scales which had to balance, so what you did to one side you had to do the sane to the other,
I also went through the number line method, as I am not of the belief that more than one method confuses a child, but if they are secure in one method, another will give them another way of looking at it and so deepen their understanding.

[FabulousFudge]

Yes it is in the new curriculum for year 1 - it's tricky!

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

That's quite possibly true,Mrz. And some children would probably have spotted that straight away If it was a number bond they knew well.

[Preminstreltension]

My y1 child has just done dragon box and really enjoyed it. He wouldn't use the principles of it to work this out though. He'd count on 7 on his fingers I think. I'll ask him tomorrow and see what he does. I agree that it's quite difficult in the abstract but easy with Lego or raisins!

[mrz]

The example given in the PoS is the same question given to the OPs child so it's possible the teacher expects them to have learnt it.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

Yes. I'd highly recommend the dragon box 5+ app. It's brilliant at teaching the basics of algebra in a fun way.

I suppose they would eventually just know it Mrz. But I suspect this would also come under reasoning with number bonds too, wouldn't it? Would be a bit of a missed opportunity to just learn it by rote IMO.

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

Ooh thanks cornflake!

[cornflakegirl]

Whirlpool - if your daughter is interested, there is an app called Dragon Box which teaches the basics through play. Both my boys really like it.

[EmberRose]

Multi link cubes (same colour for each numbers eg 9 green, 7 red, 16 pink) would really help to demonstrate this relationship.

The new curriculum is really geared towards knowing facts and quick recall but they arrive with us in secondary not all knowing their times tables. This is no reflection on my primary colleagues, but I am hoping the new curriculum will help to focus on mental methods. (Some still leave yr11 not knowing their times tables and by drawing 20 dots to circle into groups of 5...) a real minority though!

[mrz]

Taken directly from the Maths Programme of Study for Y1

"Notes and guidance (non-statutory)
Pupils memorise and reason with number bonds to 10 and 20 in several forms (for example, 9 + 7 = 16; 16 –7 = 9; 7 = 16 –9 )."

so I imagine they are looking for children to simply know

[EmberRose]

But you wouldn't start with calling in an equation. When you introduce equations it's about finding the missing number. I like to use a cloud which hides the missing number. You can then bring in the idea of using the inverse to find the missing number.

The real issue here is understanding that ? - 9 = 7 means the same as the OP question. Then immediately it looks easier.

[poppy70]

I am sorry, I am sure there have been some wonderful things that work...including that... But it isnot one I would recommend for such young children. And don't doubt that some children can do it when shown.

[Lurkedforever1]

poppy I'm not objecting to you having a different opinion, nor am I promoting my opinion as the one size fits all solution. I just offered an explanation of what I did to explain it to a child of that stage. You can have whatever professional opinion you like on whether you think most of what you've seen here is suitable, but that doesn't make it a more correct or valid opinion than anyone else's, or indeed result in your way being superior.
Nor do I think a 6yr old would need to be potentially gifted to understand it.

[poppy70]

The original question was about a Y1 child. I have no knowledge of the child you are talking about. Wasn't the question. In my professional opinion a !of of what I have seen mentioned here is unsuitable for such a child. All methods need to build on understanding. The majority of Y1, unless they are potentially gifted, will not understand how to balance an equation. They will know how to work that out in a concrete manner with mallibles or by counting on.

[tricot39]

To keep it really simple I might try adding +9 to both sides of the equation so that you end up with 16 = ?

[Lurkedforever1]

She wasn't y1. But that's irrelevant because whether she was 12months or 16, she learnt it at the same stage in her development as most y1 children do. She's not a prodigy but neither would anyone suggest she doesn't know much about maths, so perhaps it might be wise not to make either blanket statements about what works best for all children at the y1 stage of learning, or remarks about the possible understanding of a child you know nothing about.

[poppy70]

Sorry Y1 was too young for a child tonisolate. Unless they are a prodigy they don't understand that much about maths.

[Lurkedforever1]

Never said it was poppy, and I get from this thread not all teachers use the same method for every child. Using a different method does not always result in confusion. Isolating for one child might not be the answer, whereas for others it's the best. And while teachers may know more about all the different methods and strategies available and how to implement them, which suits each child etc, that doesn't reduce my own ability to know what works for my child, or to share that because who knows, that might click with ops child too.

[mrz]

The samples for the new KS1 tests don't allow number lines, counters or 100 squares

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

I think you`ll find schools teach this in lots of ways - some kids just het it, others need number lines, Dd used the clock as a number line. Some need counters, some lego/cars dinosours as long as they mature into an adult who understand the method the path doesnt matter.

[poppy70]

I am sorry but confusing a child with different methods is not exactly a clever thing to do. If a child doea not get whatbis the adopted methods of the school. It is up to the individual teacher as to what they do get.

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

Do yr 1 children do this stuff?

I'm fairly sure DD hasn't been taught this sort of thing and she's just finished yr 3

Our school is a bit crap though TBF. And of course she probably doesn't tell me everything! But she has been keen to do "sums with x's in" ie the sort of question in the OP for ages and she asked at school and they told her not til secondary school.