Year 4 class majority at 4c

[Cakeismymaster]

Hi, wondered if I could get some experience/input on this. My ds is in yr 4, last month we had a progress report and he is working at level 4c. So I looked up the levels etc and versus the quoted averages he seemed to be doing well, a little bit ahead of where he should be. Cue a 'treat' for him to say well done. A few weeks later it turns out that basically the entire class bar maybe 5 children are also at the 4c level. Now, maybe I'm being cynical but I am thinking either they are a class full of fairly bright kids or (more likely) the school are over setting the levels so to speak? Because what's the point of having average levels as indicators when a teacher/head/school then decrees the whole class at a high-ish level - aren't the school then creating their own 'averages' ?

[ladyquinoa]

It has meant that the bottom of the class is 4a 5c and the parents assume their kids are not bright when they are

[ladyquinoa]

My boys are in bright year groups. Good number of level 6 with the rest being level 5 in year 6.

The year below are more mixed ability

[simpson]

I would be very if my 2B child in yr2 felt they were the dumbest in the class.

[SlightlyTerrified]

Brilliant post, I totally agree. The schools will have to come up with something otherwise there will be major issues at GCSE stage.

Personally I like having some sort of bench mark but I am not sure the current NC levels are that great either, although I have no idea of what a better or 'the right' way is.

[PastSellByDate]

I think this discussion raises the whole delimma of the process of explaining to parents how your child is doing in some sort of context which can be understood beyond the school gates - so performance locally/ nationally.

NC Levels in theory were targets of expected standard of achievement by a certain point. Benchmarks if you will.

These can be arrived at formulaically by having a child sit a SAT test and then using scores to work out bands. Thresholds for scores are by whole NC Levels: e.g. 2012 KS2 Maths SATs L3-5 paper here www.satspapers.co.uk/sats-papers/ks2/level-thresholds/ks2-2012-level-thresholds.pdf

This means that the level has to be divided into thirds:

Soon this 2012 L3-L5 KS2 Maths SATs paper level 4 scores are 40 - 60

40 - 46 - could be L4c
46 - 52 - could be L4b
53 - 60 - could be L4a

But there actually is no guidance - and schools can 'game' this.

From a parents perspective (and I'm just a Mum) we want to know:

How is our child doing?
Are they doing well?
Are they struggling?
where do they need to improve?

Obviously this can be discussed in long-winded fashion - but as teachers are busy people - the short-hand of NC Levels (or grades as we use in the US) means that a parent can quickly scan a list of subjects and see notionally that their DC is doing well, struggling, etc....

As this document (see assessment on P2)-
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/276674/National_curriculum_and_assessment_from_September_2014_fact_sheet_update.pdf

• demonstrates - from 2014 NC Levels will be abandoned and each school can opt to describe performance in anyway they like.
  

This has a number of problems:

Schools can avoid those hard discussions (your kid doesn't get subtraction) and just tell parents DC has scored 3 unicorns and is doing fine - which of course means absolutely nothing and doesn't convey any form of relevant information on performance.

I fear this new system is going to lead to a lot of anger. The only points where assessment will be on a nationally agreed scale will be KS2 SATs and KS4 GCSEs. Both results reported so late in the cycle that there is little or nothing a parent can do to remedy the situation (more help at home, purchase of workbooks, ensuring regular access to reading material, etc...).

I suspect the vast majority of schools will handle this transition sensitively and try to give parents information that will make it clear when a child needs more support or when a child is doing well or even exceptionally well. However, I remain sceptical about how our school will handle this and suspect it's right back to the drawing board for parents - with nothing but vague statements about 'what children did in D&T' (or other subjects) this year and what they particularly enjoyed.

[Cakeismymaster]

I agree with the poster who said discussing levels with younger children is detrimental to their motivation. This is exactly what has happened with yr2 ds. He's been told he is currently 'only' a 2b and now thinks (and I quote) that he is 'the dumbest in the class'

[Taffeta]

From my limited experience I would also say its unusual to have nearly an entire cohort at this level halfway through Y4.

Yes a top table or group or toe but not the majority of the cohort.

[pixiepotter]

'There is no advantage to the school in inflating levels'
maybe not the school, but the individual teacher could to make himself look good.The Y5 teacher will then have to do the same, then in Y6 the chickens will come home to roost.

[Impatientismymiddlename]

I think the whole level thing creates pressure and sometimes unrealistic expectations. The way sats are done and levelled in schools also doesn't always give a true reflection of a child's ability.

One of my children got 4c's in all subjects at the end of year 3 (the optional sats tests). I was very pleased with those levels. However, after moving to a new school at the start of year 4 my child's new teacher told me that my son was quite a bit above 4c in both maths and reading and that the level of sats tests he would have taken can only give a maximum level of 4c. Schools can allow the child to sit a different level test if they feel it us appropriate but my sons previous school don't do that. So the level you get might not even reflect the child's ability.

There is also a problem in some schools spending so much time preparing for sats tests that the children do very well when it comes to the actual test but their knowledge is specific to the test type questions and other areas of the curriculum may have suffered.

Then there is the issue of pressure and some children not performing well on test day due to the amount of pressure they have been put under during the over-preparation of getting ready in the weeks for the tests.

I think we should just scrap sats tests.

[Snowdown]

Part of my issue with discussing levels with younger kids is that they start to lose confidence in themselves if their efforts are not met with achievements in nc levels. I believe effort should be the target we share with all kids, it may be more subjective but kids should know that it is effort that will pull them through.

[SlightlyTerrified]

It is still unusual to have a whole class of 4cs in a Y4 class at this stage in the year, maybe closer to the end of the year

www.devon.gov.uk/fostering-national-curriculum-levels.pdf

this shows a better chart of the NC levels in each year

[lottieandmia]

4c is definitely within normal range for this age although good.

[SlightlyTerrified]

I suspect the HT will be very disappointed with the number of 3as in Y2, either that or the Y3 teacher will be telling some very disapppointed parents that their child is not in fact a genius! I am guessing she may have meant 2a?

I think as a rule you are right about not discussing levels with 7 YOs but some children are motivated differently and like to know their level and what level they are working to next. I don't think it should be normal practice though as for many children it would have the opposite effect, particularly if comparing to others in the class.

[Snowdown]

Something doesn't sit right with me when it comes to discussing NC levels with 7 year olds. School should focus on teaching and stimulating kids to learn - not putting pressure on them to jump over certain hurdles by the end of the year - a child being made aware of potential failure in Year 2 to meet expectations....sounds all wrong and unnecessary.

[simpson]

I would also be very about the teacher telling yr2 kids their levels or discussing where they should be.

DS is in yr4 and this is the first year he has been told his levels by his teacher.

[SlightlyTerrified]

3a is crazy for Y2, 2a is fabulous! Some children may be at that level but it is fairly rare, 1 child truly at that level would be unusual in a year group TBH but does happen. My friends DD is a 4c in writing and she is in Y2! DS1 was in reading but nothing else but I would imagine it is more likely in reading than anything else.

4c is really high for the whole class and you said the teacher had said they were nearly there for getting to a 4c so maybe she was just being encouraging. Last term the top child in my friends DSs Y4 class was a 4c so I do think it is unusual for the whole class to be.

[simpson]

Yr2 at a 3a

My DS is in yr4 and is a 4C and I know that there are only 3 kids at this level in maths (they are all best friends) in his class of 30. Don't know about the other class or other subjects though, it seems very high to have most of the class at this level.

My concern would be that they are being pushed before they are ready (mainly for the yr2 expectations).

[Cakeismymaster]

Thanks sellbydate that is good info
Interesting that the expected level at end of yr4 is 3b, this brings home that the school is definetly pushing for the general all round level to be above average - my other dc is in yr2 and school doesn't come as easily to him..his class have been told that the head would like them to finish yr2 at 3a! Am hoping he misunderstood but even if she generally would like yr 2's to finish at level 3 that is still quite a high expectation of all the children.

[PastSellByDate]

HI Cake:

You can have bright cohorts.

MN has information about progress through NC LEVELS here: www.mumsnet.com/learning/assessment/progress-through-national-curriculum-levels

So nationally your DC is one full NC Level ahead of expected progress (Year 4 typically finish 3B).

The NC Level is likely to be influenced by performance on optional SATs (ask your DC if he has done a comprehension from a booklet where he reads a story and answers questions, or listened to a tape and answered mental math questions or done a maths booklet - odds are he'll say yes. So he's sat a KS2 SAT which is scored against NC Levels by points - get X many questions right and you're NC L4 or NC L5).

I realise you may have left yoru parent/teacher meeting with the impression your DC was a clever clogs and now feel that can't be the case because most of his class is doing as well - but stepping back again - it means your son is doing extremely well, the school are teaching him well and he's surrounded by kids who he'll be working with/ competing against each day who are doing well - that 'vibration' - good teachers/ bright kids/ healthy competition will bring out the best in all the class.

LUCKY OLD YOU!

Go forth and be smug. Your DC is doing well, he's clearly at a good school and in a bright cohort. Sit back and relax your lucky so-and-so....

HTH

[stepfordwifey]

A 3C child at end of Y2 should be 4B at the end of Y4 assuming they make good progress in Y3 and Y4. Two sub levels per year is considered good progress. They should be predicted to make level 5 by the end of Y6.

[stoopstofolly]

Apologies- I meant to start a new thread and haven't. Will look into moving it.

[Cakeismymaster]

If I remember rightly he was a 3c at the end of yr 2 so seems about right where he is now, I've been telling his grandparents for the last two yrs how he must be pretty bright but now you point it out re school averages etc I think he's just where he should be. Which as long as he continues to enjoy school is fine with me

[Elibean]

That said, in a small school the levels can fluctuate wildly with a cohort - my dd1's class average in Y4 was lower than that (dd was roughly the same) but in dd2's class, I would bet on most of the class making 4(c) by Y4. They seem, bar a very few, to be either bright or wildly bright

[Elibean]

I would give the treat for effort rather than a level, that way it doesn't matter