Views on ability groups

[averywoomummy]

Having just read the thread about summer borns and having done a bit of reasearch on the internet about ability groups I was just wondering what people's views were on them.

Personally I am quite worried about how they are used at DCs school and wonder if I am right to be so. The thing is I could understand if they sat at mixed tables and then went into separate groups for maths etc but in DCs class they sit in their ability group for the majority of the time - even doing crafts within their group. This seems to very much fix them in their ability band and they don't get the chance to work with children of different abilities and share knowledge.

This also means the groups are very obvious and as they use the same names year in year out parents instantly know what group their child and others are in.

It also concerns me that it is a small classroom with a fixed number on each table and so for a child to move up - another has to move down (and vice versa) this doesn't seem right as surely children's development is very fluid and just because one is ready to move up doesn't mean that at the same time another child is ready to move down. It also seems quite divisive as children could perceive their place has been "taken".

As DC is in a lower group I also worry about her learning being capped and I think that even if she is capable of a bit more she may not be encouraged to do it. I worry that the lower group will start to see themselves as not so capable and that it will become a self fulfilling prophesy.

I can understand differentiation of work but does it have to be so obvious?!

Really interested to hear others opinions of how this has worked for their DCs - also how does a class with no grouping work?

[anitasmall]

Mrz,

I dislike ability groups, too. The top rated education systems do not teach based on ability groups, all the class does the same work. It was mentioned on this topic that the top set children gain from ability groups. That's not true at all. At international mats, science competitions UK children underachieve.

However I have that feeling that in an average UK class there are wilder differences that in any Eastern European, Scandinavian, Fare East countries. In my daughter's class (Y2) there are children who are struggling to add 1 digit numbers while some others can multiply a full number with a fraction, add 3 digit numbers...

[lougle]

DD3 is in Reception and does guided reading. The books don't have words but the children are being encouraged to tell stories from the pictures with a teacher.

[Huitre]

I have to say, I am not sure my high ability DD is gaining much from her ability-grouped tables. Having helped a lot in school, I know she is a long way ahead of her peers in some areas but I don't see a lot of individual work headed her way. What I do see is lip service - we have five groups! How can you say your kid isn't catered for?! Fortunately, she's a self-starter and doesn't need anyone else to get her going. I do wonder what happens to really high ability children who don't have anyone who can help them at home, though.

[simpson]

DD was in a reception class of 90 last year which worked really well.

They were in ability groups for phonics only in reception but in yr1 is in ability groups for pretty much everything.

I do remember DS in yr1 (now yr4) being most upset as he was put into ability groups for learning how to knit! (Which actually I thought was a great thing to bring into the classroom- but he was on the bottom table and NOT happy).

[vkyyu]

Spanish11- my dc caught up so moved up set only since then dc has chances to taste the level 5 questions and realises her potential to reach a higher level of attainment. I keep reminding her that in ks1 she s too young to be able to do much about her attainment level etc however just work harder this year so she can have a better fresh start in year 7. Sometimes I feel I am trying repair the damages that school left her with. I believe some people streamed their dcs even before they set foot in the reception door.

[mrz]

anitasmall have you considered that there is such a wide range of abilities in UK classes because of ability groupings? Yes you will have high flyers who will need to be challenged and extended but would there still be children who are left miles behind if they weren't labelled low ability and given less challenge

[vkyyu]

Anitasmall - do you believe that those yr 2 kids who can multiply a full number with fraction and add 3 digits learn all that in their school. Maths is a subject that really need formal input unlike literacy.

[teacherwith2kids]

Mrz, I have been thinking about whether I do 'ability groupings' or 'differentiation', lesson by lesson.

The point is that in virtually every lesson, everone gets the same 'teaching' (there are a few occasions in which I set an independent challenge for those who it is clear from the last lesson have 'got it', and teach the remainder of the class). However, I differentiate their response to that input, day by day and lesson by lesson, on the basis of assessment from the previous lesson and from questioning during the teaching. I happen to send them to particular areas of the classroom to do that response work - because in one area there will be specific equipment or a different piece of work or an adult or whatever - but it is not an 'ability group' as others on here mean it, because it will be a wholly different grouping tomorrow. And children commonly 'move between' those parts of the classroom in mid-lesson: either to access support as i find that they were not as secure in the 'next step' as it seemed they might be, or because their first few minutes of work show that they are secure and need more challenge.

My only 'reasonably fixed' groupings are guided reading groups - more for practicality and convenience [number of books] than from sinister intent. They sometimes all have slightly different texts (Shakespeare in the original, and in several children's versions, at the moment, but from different plays and at different lengths) but very similar objectives - laddered, it's easy for a child working in a 'lower'group to quickly emonstrate a 'higher' skill in response to a question - or sometimes texts in rotation, with the same obectives for different texts but with the texts being used by different groups in turn [I do a simultaneous 50 minute guided reading session for all groups, with an adult per group, adults rotated every few weeks]

[mrz]

"No child should be held back...neither should a child be left behind." which is exactly what happens in ability grouping of young children according to research!

[WooWooOwl]

The research you posted showed that there was a disadvantage to the higher ability children Mrz.

I'm very thankful my children were not and are still not placed in mixed ability groups. I don't believe it would have been better for them.

[mrz]

Perhaps you should read it again WooWooOwl
""The evidence on pupil grouping is readably reviewed summarised in a book by Susan Hallam, Judith Ireson and Jane Davies from the Institute of Education. They conclude that ‘structured-ability grouping, of itself, does not raise standards. While teachers find planning and teaching easier when they are working with pupils of similar attainment, this does not always translate into better pupil performance. Ability grouping tends to lower expectations for pupils who are not in the highest set. They receive a different curriculum, taught differently, that teachers believe is matched to pupils’ needs but that pupils, all too often, perceive as too easy and lacking in challenges and interest. Grouping pupils by ability reduces access of the less able to parts of the curriculum, high-ability role-models and examples of high-quality work they might emulate. ’"


How much actual experience do you have of ability grouping & the alternative ways of organising classes?

[shebird]

What every parent wants is for their child to reach their full potential but it seems that not every child is given this opportunity.

[mrz]

If you read what I've written you will see that I'm not suggesting any such thing. I'm saying children are very different and spurious grouping by ability doesn't acknowledge that!

[lougle]

It's all a nonsense when you think of it in terms of individual children. Take my DD2 - right now, she can't seem to even follow a basic task such as 'copy the title from the white board' without support. Yet, at home, she is asking me why there is no gravity in space if there is gravity on Earth. The school are supporting and involving other professionals.

However, for those who advocate ability streaming, would you place her in a high ability group (as she's clearly able) or a low ability group (because she's demonstrating a lower ability)?

I think she had been placed in a lower ability group, as the teacher could only go on what she saw. It was only when I showed her a video of DD2's response to unplanned difference in some homework, and explanations of the sorts of things DD2 is saying at home, that has given the teacher a different impression.

There are lots of children who may not be demonstrating their ability for various reasons. Ability grouping gives an opportunity to ignore children's underperformance and instead view it as 'just how they are.'

[WooWooOwl]

Mrz, I read what you posted

"Students' experiences of ability grouping similarly suggests that setting in mathematics has a negative effect on both attainment and motivation, with the exception of slightly improved attainment for top set pupils.

My children are top set pupils, so selfishly, I want what is best for them. They are not at school to be role models or provide examples of high quality work, they are there to learn as much as they possibly can.

I have only worked in one school, and the teachers there use sets for literacy but not maths in KS1. From what I can see, there is no way in the world that our most intelligent child in Y1 will benefit from being taught at the same level as least able child needs.

The least able child is struggling with sounds that are made up of more than one letter, the most able child can read really well. It will take a hell of a lot of research to convince me that these two children will benefit from doing literacy in the same class.

The more able one needs to keep moving on and being taught new things as soon as they have grasped one thing. The least able one needs more focused attention and a lot of time to reinforce each thing they have learned.

How exactly do they both benefit from being taught together?

[lougle]

Well I've seen literacy taught in a whole class then the work following differentiated to where the children are at.

So, for instance, looking at story telling. The children are taught in a whole class group. Then, the children who are most advanced are expected to write a page long story. The children who are most behind are expected to order pictures in sequence.

Crucially, though, the children who are most behind have had the benefit of hearing the contributions of the children who are most advanced during the whole class group time.

[WooWooOwl]

Lougle, I posted about a similar problem my ds once had on another thread yesterday. He was getting annoyed at not being given harder work because he wasn't demonstrating what he could do properly. That was a problem with him, that he needed to learn to get over.

He had to be convinced to show his ability in the way the school required, and as he eventually learned that he had to do so, he remained in the top group. Ability isn't worth much if you don't use it properly.

[mrz]

Then I suggest you read what you wrote

WooWooOwl Sat 23-Nov-13 17:47:40

"The research you posted showed that there was a disadvantage to the higher ability children Mrz."

you seem to be contradicting yourself

and who knows if your children are taught as individuals rather than members of a group the slightly improved attainment ...

"with the exception of slightly improved attainment for top set pupils."

could be significantly improved attainment!

[WooWooOwl]

If there could be significantly improved attainment, then great. I'd appreciate an explanation of how and why that would occur.

I'm open to being wrong, bit at the moment I just don't understand what the benefit it and how that would translate to individuals.

It seems wrong anyway to me to say definitively that there is one superior way of teaching, it makes more sense to think that different methods suit different children.

Apologies if I made a mistake earlier. I'm confusing myself!

[mrz]

because your child would be educated to his ability rather than to the ability of the group he has been assigned ...even in a high ability group there can be a huge spread. If I grouped my class that way I have one child who has a reading age 5 year above the next high ability child a spelling age 3+ years above and working a full NC level above others ...

[WooWooOwl]

Lougle, in the example you gave, I'm sure there would be benefits to doing it that way, but I can also see pitfalls if the teacher were to do that in our classroom.

In the high ability group we have, children are either allowed to look in the library or read a book when they have finished their work until the lesson is over. Children in the lower ability group would struggle to use the library alone, and would not sit and look at a book for long enough to allow the other children to finish their much longer task in peace.

They would finish their task, then the teacher might go through the pictures with them and have a chat if they'd ordered any wrong. At the same time she would need to be supporting the higher ability ones with their writing, reminding them about full stops and capital letters and the like as they go along, and I can see that it would be difficult for the teacher to effectively teach and support two things at the same time. Just the fact that we are only human suggests to me that if the teacher is at least supporting similar, albeit different, tasks, then he/she will be able to do that more effectively if they aren't talking about something completely different at the same time.

If children are in groups where the ability range isn't so wide, then everything the children hear the teacher say while they are working is relevant to their stage of learning.

[WooWooOwl]

Why can't a child be taught to their individual ability when they are being taught alongside children with a similar ability?

What difference does it make?

[mrz]

because the whole idea of ability grouping is to create a "group" of similar ability children to be taught as a "group" not as "individuals"