I don't understand phonics and reading

[Catinthebed]

Ds is P1 Northern Ireland. Didn't know any letters or sounds when he started due to speech and language difficulty.

Has now done a number of phonics and had a few picture only readers. Today he got his first reading with a word in it and he knows it say "look". However he hasn't done L or K as a phonic.

He is Dc 4 and I am bit lost as none of the rest did phonics and it's complicated by speech and language complications.

Should I teach him to sound out "look" or is that going backwards given as he already knows it?

[Mashabell]

Mrz
I only need to show them the spelling for the sound /e/ ...

So if a child can't remember which way round the i and e go (which often happens), rather than calling the letters i and e in 'friend' anything, you show them ie on the board or a piece of paper?

[mrz]

It's obvious you have never taught 30 primary children masha

[maizieD]

They are not words that can be completely sounded out.

You are making the common error of looking at phonics 'backwards' masha; which isn't surprising given your age and the way you learned to read and spell English. Diane McGuinness calls it 'junk phonics'; where t you start from letters and teach that a letter spells only one sound. This ends up getting very complex with lots of 'rules' and exceptions. And fails to explain the true nature and function of the alphabetic code.

If you start from the other 'end' and teach the 44(ish) 'sounds' and how they are represented it is much easier to learn and to understand. And simpler, with only about 160 - 180 sound spellings to learn.

But, of course, you don't really want to understand phonics because its success in teaching reading and spelling undermines your campaign to alter English spelling.

[Mashabell]

you have never taught 30 primary children masha

I hav Mrz, but it was a long time ago. Most of my 20 years of teaching was in secondary, but i hav also supported some slow readers just a few years ago. But that's besides the point. It would be nice if u could refrain from disparaging me and just answer the question.

Do teachers in your school keep referring to the letters a, e, i, o and u by their short names, as in 'bat, bet, bit, cot, cut' in all years, or do they at some point change to their traditional longer names as in 'late, even, bite, note, cute'?

One of my grandauters who is 10 still refers to them by their short names. An 8-yr-old one in another school uses the traditional names for them.

[mrz]

So 20 years ago you were the sole teacher in charge of 30 primary aged pupils masha?

No masha the teachers in my school know that there are no short or long vowel sounds so would never be so unprofessional as to talk about letters in such a way.

[columngollum]

Well, the teachers in your school don't know very much then.

[mrz]

The /ay/ in Amy, apron, made, stay, rain, eight, straight, they isn't longer than the /a/ in and, mat, ran, columngollum they are different sounds not "long" or "short" fortunately the teachers in my school know that!

[maizieD]

Are you able to discern a temporal difference in the duration of spoken 'long' and 'short' vowel sounds, cg?

The terms 'long' and 'short' are merely labels, they have no physical reality. As with letter names, it is perfectly possible to teach reading and spelling without using the labels. I would use the labels to distinguish between the two but that is my personal choice. The programme mrz's school uses doesn't follow that 'convention. It doesn't mean that the teachers are ignorant, (in fact, they have a very good understanding of phonics teaching) they just don't use that particular terminology for distinguishing the two sounds which can be represented by each of the vowel letters.

[CecilyP]

I don't know if you are right, mrz and maizie. What masha has called long and short vowels are what lyricists call open and closed vowels. An open vowel being one that can be extended over long notes without being distorted and a short vowel being one that can't.

But even if you don't believe me, calling vowels long and short is a convention (a convention that has existed for quite some time) which is very useful on a forum like this where people can't actually hear each other, so it avoids going into long convoluted explanations. Of course, these terms which are indeed labels are not a prerequisite for learning to read.

However, mrz, by being snippy about these useful labels, has totally avoided answering masha's perfectly sensible question. For while teaching letter names is not necessary for teaching reading and spelling, there must come a time when you have to refer to an individual letter, in order to distinguish it from the other 25 letters, and masha was asking how mrz would do that.

[mrz]

Are they useful labels CecilyP or just misleading? It's the same with "hard" and "soft" ... they aren't they are different sounds represented by the same spelling.

Just because we have done something for a long time doesn't mean that it is right ... as we gain knowledge we need to revise our ideas.

So if I say "Tom" it's a short/closed vowel but if I'm calling "Toooooooooooooooom!" it suddenly becomes long/open (certainly isn't distorted)

I answered masha's question about using letter names for spelling - I don't find it necessary in the classroom. I might if I was asked by an adult how to spell a word.

[juule]

I thought the 'o' in Tom was a short vowel sound and the 'o' in tome was the long vowel sound. Shouting Tom in the way you say Mrz ("Toooooooooooooooom!") I would still consider uses the short vowel sound even though it is elongated.

What are long/short vowel sounds called now to differentiate them?

[mrz]

"I would still consider uses the short vowel sound even though it is elongated." which is the point ... young children realise that the sounds aren't long or short so the label is misleeding.

They are called /o/ and /oa/, /e/ and /ee/, /a/ and /ay/, /i/ and /ie/, /u/ and /oo/ or /ue/ ... there isn't any need for "long" or "short" labels as they are different sounds.

[CecilyP]

Are they useful labels CecilyP or just misleading? It's the same with "hard" and "soft" ... they aren't they are different sounds represented by the same spelling.

I certainly think they are useful in order to talk about these things on an internet forum where we can't actually hear each other saying the sounds.

So if I say "Tom" it's a short/closed vowel but if I'm calling "Toooooooooooooooom!" it suddenly becomes long/open (certainly isn't distorted)

I disagree, I think it would be distorted.

They are called /o/ and /oa/, /e/ and /ee/, /a/ and /ay/, /i/ and /ie/, /u/ and /oo/ or /ue/ ... there isn't any need for "long" or "short" labels as they are different sounds.

What a kerfuffle; I don't seriously think you can expect lay people to go through that every time when they can just refer to long and and short vowels. As long as we all know what the other means, that is the main thing.

[CecilyP]

I answered masha's question about using letter names for spelling - I don't find it necessary in the classroom. I might if I was asked by an adult how to spell a word.

Might? What else might you do?

[mrz]

What's wrong with saying /o/ & /oa/ much quicker to type

try it

So you wouldn't know that the sound at the beginning of Amy is /ay/ while the sound at the beginning of Adam is /a/ I think "lay" people are more knowledgeable than you give them credit for CecilyP

[mrz]

Use the Nato Alphabet especially if I'm spelling out my name and address over the phone or when purchasing something that requires form filling.

[CecilyP]

So you wouldn't know that the sound at the beginning of Amy is /ay/ while the sound at the beginning of Adam is /a/ I think "lay" people are more knowledgeable than you give them credit for CecilyP

Yes of course I would, mrz, as would any other literate adult. That was not what I meant at all. I meant remembering to use /a/ and /ay/ everytime you wanted to refer to those sounds on an internet forum. Though I suppose now I have done it once, I might remember it next time.

[mrz]

Would you need to use /a/ or /ay/ you could say a or ay or "a" or "ay" (I use // because it's a convention )

[juule]

"They are called /o/ and /oa/, /e/ and /ee/, /a/ and /ay/, /i/ and /ie/, /u/ and /oo/ or /ue/ ... "

If the above notation is now being taught to all children in all schools than maybe it will replace 'long/short' terminology eventually. However, it would be necessary for all adults who haven't been taught this way to learn it. However, for a while surely children would need to be taught both ways (similar to decimilisation of money?) so that they knew both sets of terminology/notation.

How would you spell out 'cake' to a child? Phonetically 'c' and 'k' are going to be the same. Which is why 'curly kuh' and 'kicking kuh' although I've been told they aren't to be used anymore (neice's school).

[SoundsWrite]

A couple of responses to CecilyP: You're right in saying that calling vowels long and short is a convention used by many teachers. In discussions about matters such as these, most of us know what is meant by the terms. However, young children have no idea what is meant by these terms and some even think that the size of the letters is what is being referred to. My advice to teachers has always been for them to avoid using ambiguous or possibly misleading terminology. For that reason, I agree with mrz and would advocate talking about sounds.
The other question was about using letter names. This is really a judgement call on the part of the teacher. Once young children understand how the alphabet code is structured (sounds and spellings) and they are moving from being taught the one-to-ones, it is probably time to start using letter names. Even then though it isn't absolutely necessary. A teacher with a small whiteboard can spell sounds for children simply by writing them on the whiteboard. So, for example, when a young child asks how to spell the word 'stream', I ask them which sound they are having trouble with. Chances are it's the /ee/, in which case I write it on the whiteboard and say, "This (), is the way we spell /ee/ in 'stream'". When the teacher feels it is appropriate, or to save time, they simply say, "It's the /ee/ /ae/ spelling". And this works all the way through school at any level of difficulty. So, if you're asked by a Year 10 pupil how you spell 'kaleidoscope', the difficult spelling (usually) being the /ie/ sound, you respond that it's the /ee/ /ie/ spelling.

[mrz]

No the above notation isn't being taught to children juule. They don't need notation what talking

I wouldn't spell it out ...I would ask the child to tell me the sounds they can hear in the word and hopefully they can say /k/ /ay/ /k/ ...if they aren't sure which spelling to use I would say it's the /k/ spelling in cat (or a word they know) at the beginning etc

[mrz]

or simply show them either on the alphabet code chart or demonstrate if they are very young.

[juule]

"I would say it's the /k/ spelling in cat (or a word they know)"

But what if they have forgotten which one starts 'cat'? You would possibly need several words before they said 'ohhh that one'. 'Curly kuh' or 'see' is much quicker - especially if you haven't got a wall-chart or a pen handy. I'm thinking of children asking at home.

[mrz]

If you are just 4 you might not know/recall what a curcly c or a "see" looks like so it's much simpler to show them

[mrz]

you don't need a pen - air write (backwards if facing the child)