I'm a teacher and happy to answer any questions

[DellaF83]

Hi, I'm an experienced primary school teacher and happy to answer any questions anyone may have.

[mrz]

I'm assuming the terms of your daughter's statement specify that she has (named) 1-1 and that the school had not been honouring the statement to the letter but decided that Ofsted might question the provision when they visited.

Some statements are very loosely worded specifying how many sessions per week or percentages rather than actual hours of support. Others state hours and name who will provide the support

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'It is a misconception to think that the SEN Case Officer who put the statement together thought really, really carefully about exactly the type and amount of support the child would most benefit from'

Of course not. They take the recommendation from Educational Psychologists, Occupational Therapists, Speech and Language Therapists and other who HAVE thought long and hard about how many hours of support a child might need and have experience of making those recommendations. If there is a disagreement between the professionals the parents have a right to appeal before a tribunal, who think even extra hard about the number of hours a child needs.

A classroom teacher therefore has no right to make a decision that the provision so carefully considered is either barmy or unnecessary and override it, particularly in the case of a vulnerable child who may have communication difficulties the prevent the parents from ever finding out.

[inappropriatelyemployed]

The problem as I see it is the TA's role in the current model of 'inclusion' premised as it is on:

-inclusion in large classes

-with teachers who often know very little about SEN/disability and are unable to naturally make reasonable adjustments without those adjustments being compelled by the requirements of the statement. Not blaming teachers - but how many have in-depth SEN training??

• in a school system that is, perhaps understandably, built on a model of compliance in which all children must do the same thing all the time and if they don't, or can't, then they lead a different life with a TA

This creates an 'opt in' or 'opt out' model of education - exclusion within an inclusive environment. A child is either in the class or out. Either doing PE or not etc etc. With a TA or not.

A TA is supposed to create the flexibility to bridge that gap between the child and the peer group and encourage the development of core skills but, in my experience, this seldom works because TAs may not have the skills,training, understanding or support to address this. Or perhaps, sometimes, it is just not able to be addressed.

Further, teachers routinely abdicate responsibility to the TA rather than work out how best to apply their support.

My son has been supported by a TA and a teacher (acting) working as a TA and both experiences have been absolutely dreadful for him. He is sensitive to being treated differently and the school model just doesn't work for him.

However, I think that if more flexibility about being in and out of the classroom had been present earlier on, and properly trained staff had been available, than he would have had a chance of integrating.

At the end of the day, TAs can be absolutely vital at helping children manage mainstream schooling but the model on which they work (a dump and run model of delegation) is frequently why it also fails.

Smaller class sizes, more teachers, less TAs and more flexibility is what would help make inclusion work.

[ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee]

Odd. Very, very odd.

Still - you all seem to have found something to chat about :)

[inappropriatelyemployed]

Oh, and better training and understanding of the basic SENs children are likely to encounter.

Nearly 1 in 5 children have an SEN within our system. Most of these SEN also constitute disabilities under the Equality Act.

We have got to stop seeing SEN as an optional add on - something for TAs and SENCOs - and start mainstreaming these issues.

[Inclusionist]

But starlight the hours are just in brackets. 12, 15, 25 or 35. How accurate do you think that can be? Does a child given 25 need 25 or 15.5?

Of course expert advise is fed in but it really isn't the magic wand process you think it is- which is why there is recognition that it must be changed to become more child centred. The very fact that the new model is being designed to reflect children's needs accurately must tell you that the current system doesn't??

I completely agree innapropriate.

[Inclusionist]

*advice

[Tavv]

Odd. Very, very odd.

I agree Chipping. It sounds like someone researching for an essay or article headed "What are the main things people would want to ask a teacher?"

[KOKOagainandagain]

This debate has a certain irony for me. At tribunal the LA wanted DS1 to go to the local m/s secondary with, not one, but two, different TAs 1:1 for 32+ hours each week. The TA would meet him before he entered school and would be with him all the time.

I had named indi ss where DS1 would be in small classes but not need any 1:1 beyond therapy. He has Auditory Processing Disorder amongst other things and is unable to hear/understand in a normal sized classroom.

In some circumstances DC need different environments/things in order to begin learning rather than assuming a starting point where the child is sat in their seat, is listening, is able to hear/understand (including the implicit), is paying attention and concentrating on the teaching etc.

Nevertheless, the LA argued that the indi ss would be a barrier to his gaining skills of independence whereas their option (which cost more) could do so. In reality, in the environment of mainstream, DS1 would never be able to develop skills of independence (nor would he have be able to follow the NC).

So, local m/s with 32+ hours Velcro TAs and teaching of functional skills at high cost or indi ss, with no TA and access to the NC at lower cost? Of course it's a 'no-brainer' (after the event) - the LA lost but not without my taking time off work, spending £15k (£5k on the day of the hearing) and, worse of all, DS1 being unable to attend school for the best part of an academic year.

I would like to bet that the LA is responsible for any inconsistency in statements.

[Inclusionist]

I also think you are taking a very one child view on it (i.e. your own). You obviously feel strongly that your childs needs are best met by an untrained body trailing them for a set number of hours a week.

Please don't assume this is a one size fits all solution to SEN.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'The very fact that the new model is being designed to reflect children's needs accurately must tell you that the current system doesn't??'

That's a very odd conclusion and also not what I understand the new model to be about. IIRC it is about better cross-agency working, properly costing support, creating an illusion of parental choice and giving LAs an opportunity to get rid of a number of children who they are currently legally obligated to fund.

But in any case, full-time 1:1 is pretty straightforward as a concept, new model or old.

[JesusInTheCabbageVan]

Tavv oooh, I hope my panties question gets in the article.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Very few children (probably none) can have their needs met by an untrained body trailing around after them.

I'd be very surprised if any Educational Psychologist recommended that to the Statementing Officer. I would certainly haul the LA into tribunal if they put that on my ds' statement.

[soapboxqueen]

Teachers may not be experts in every sen but they are with the child in the classroom for an infinitely larger about of time than the experts sent to diagnose them. I have never once been given any rationale for what supported hours are supposed to be used for, never mind any expert opinion or support. I get a child, a label and set number of hours. Usually 5 or some such amount. I have a set of targets that a child needs to reach and am left to work out how best to achieve that. So yes I do make decisions about support given to children because otherwise nothing would happen. With the exception of children with very specific and intense needs where there are detailed tasks for support to achieve, all children are different but the experts do not have the time to really get to know the child. They calculate hours based on broad assumptions of a condition and the level of intensity perceived.

I make a decision based on what I think is best as a result of my knowledge of the child. Not a cut and paste statement that is years out of date.

[NeedtoFightSmarter]

My step-daughter (who we have PR for)' s statement was drawn up on the reports made by a speech therapist who she met once for 20 minutes, an Ed Psych who visited her at school and spent just over half an hour with her in the school library, creating a single day's snapshot of her and the local authority's advisory teacher who had observed her over a year ago. Sorry, I have more faith in the teachers, who are with her day in day out, identifying what she needs than these three "experts". I have read the statements of two other children and they all look so similar and have obviously used some identikit template, despite the children all being so different.

[insanityscratching]

Needto statements that are quantified and specified are in the main based on independent reports ( paid for by parents) written by specialists and the statements written by a solicitor from an educational law firm (or by some very clever parents on the MNSN forum) and fought over at Tribunal. The general crap doled out by LA's based on reports by Ed psychs who are employed by them aren't worth the paper they are written on and are a reason why teachers can legitimately use assigned TA support as they choose.

[Inclusionist]

15hrs in my authority brings £12k. After on-costs this pays for a Level 1 TA (no training) for 15 hrs a week, pretty much exactly, including having to pay for their breaks.

Or, it could pay for 2hrs a week social skills training with a specialist HLTA, 2 sessions a week with a specialist dyslexia teacher, a block of drama therapy during the year and access to a nurture provision at break and lunchtimes.

Why would you assume the 1:1 model to be better?

[Inclusionist]

Exactly soapbox.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'I make a decision based on what I think is best as a result of my knowledge of the child. Not a cut and paste statement that is years out of date.'

That out of date cut and paste statement is your duty to address, not ignore or flout the law because you think that an EP hadn't seen the child for long enough in your opinion.

If it specifies provision, the child is entitled by law to receive it and the child's parents has the expectation that that provision will be received.

If you have a problem with it for any reason, make it known at annual review time, or through the proper channels in order to trigger an annual review before then. It is not your call as to whether the provision within it should be followed or is relevant, though there is a proper formal process for dealing with that should you feel it ought to be.

When you make decisions not to follow the specifics of the statement do you inform the parents?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

15hrs in my authority brings £12k.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

A properly specified statement will indicate what support the child will receive during those 15 hours, not how much money the child will get.

Money does not meet need, specified provision does. I couldn't care less if the person providing support to my ds was a volunteer from the WI as long as they were appropriately trained to deliver the support my child needed.

I don't have to CHOOSE between a couple of hours of social skill groups with a HLTA or an untrained TA for 15 hours. That's ridiculous.

The statement will say what is needed. Perhaps it will specify both!?

[mrz]

If I felt a velcro TA (love the term) was detrimental to the child's progress I would always discuss my concerns with the parents.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Incidentally I have seen very little evidence-base for nurture groups, but schools seem to like them as respite for the teacher from the difficult kids.