When and how do you discuss the Holocaust with kids?

[nevergoogle]

DS1 is 8 and loves history, "especially the stuff that actually happened" he says.
This term he is learning about WWII at school and he's really enjoying the subject. He has complained that the teacher doesn't seem to know much and keeps talking about sweetie rations.
We went to the book shop and I found myself vetting any of the WWII books for any graphic images of the holocaust, which is sensible I think, although it got me feeling like I was enforcing some sort of holocaust denial.
So when and how do you broach this subject?

I remember being about 10 when I discovered some graphic photographs in a history book and I remember finding it very shocking so I don't know if this was too early, or just not the right way to learn about it.

For me, it's such an important part of human history so needs to be discussed at some point, but when?

[learnandsay]

The current woman on trial in Munich and her dead friends appear to have started their own cell. I can't start up my own version of the Conservative party and claim to be a conservative or to speak for British conservatives. That's not how political parties work. The word neo in neo-Nazi is there for a reason. Any crackpot can be a neo anything. Being a real Nazi is a bit harder!

The relevance of the holocaust hasn't been discussed by me (yet.)

[breadandbutterfly]

learnandsay -

That's illogical. Hitler didn't 'join' an established and successful pre-existing Nazi party, he did indeed 'start it up' - to use your terminology. According to you, the woman in Munich is nothing to worry about because she's on her own (well, only her and her 'cell'). The point is, unpleasant historical movements start somewhere - if we ignore them because they're only a small fringe group then we risk them getting more support and growing into a mainstream group. Whether you prefer to call them Nazi or Neo-Nazi is mere semantics - clearly she identifies with a lot of the original Nazis' worst policies, including that of killing as many immigrants from backgrounds they dislike as possible. Policies which advocate mass murder should be stopped and confronted whether or not they are labelled 'Nazi' - surely that much is obvious???

Clearly the Conservative Party are not a small fringe group with a dangerous and potentially violent philosophy (well, Michael Gove aside...) so if we share their views, we can join the 'official' party which is allowed to continue freely. There is no need to start off our 'own' Conservative parties (though UKIP might disagree). The fact that this particular cell in Germany has not joined an 'official' Nazi party to express its views is not because it has unique or exceptional views but because official Nazi parties are banned in Germany as a direct result of the holocaust.

Undoubtedly, if it were legal to have an 'official' Nazi party in Germany, they would have quite a large number of supporters - as they do in other countries with a Nazi past but less awareness of responsibility for that past and no laws to prevent it. The article linked to above about Hungary demonstrates that well.

[learnandsay]

Proper political parties are recognised by the state. Primary school children are too young to understand or care about any of this detail. But as far as the question "are there any Nazis today?" goes the answer is no. Because there is no Nazi party, so it's not possible to be a member of the Nazi party today.

Are there far right parties out there who are recognised by the state? Yes: BNP and France's Front National for a start.

Maybe the question are there still any Nazis is the wrong question because it has a literal answer. Perhaps a better question is: are there still influential fascist parties and leaders today? And the answer is yes there are.

[gabsid]

Besides, Hitler and his right-wing party consisted initially of 30 people. He didn't gain in popularity because he intended killing lots of people, he was popular because the economy was at its knees, people didn't believe in the main parties and he promised them to solve the problem and blamed the whole misery on the Jews. He was a very charismatic speaker and promised to resolve local issues, provide work and food.

And I think we can learn a lot from this today, maybe not at primary age but certainly in secondary school. That said, I think no age is too early to be outward looking, tolerant and understanding, e.g. my DD (4) hasen't seen many black people in her life and recently she didn't want to play on a swing in a park, she said that she didn't want to swing with these black DC because she doesn't like black people! It's hard to meet people from different cultures around here though, but we will have to work on that. Also, UKIP did very well around here and the posters they put up read something like: Enough is enough, stop immigration

[mrz]

The American Nazi Party not only exists in the present day but is active on Twitter and other social networks

[infamouspoo]

Indeed Mrz. And very busy they are with the anti-semitic stuff and the jewish conspiracy theories and the white supremicist hate.

[learnandsay]

I guess people will make their own minds up about what is a group of nutters and what is a political party. I'd imagine in a democracy a political party would stand for elections. I suppose how seriously analysts would take them would depend on whether or not they won any. When the BNP started winning council seats in Barking a few years ago there was very much upset indeed.

[mrz]

Well the ANP have their first lobbyist in Washington in the shape of their presidential candidate ...does that make them a political party as well as a group of nutters?

[KatieScarlett2833]

I took my two to the Anne Frank House when they were studying the war in S2.

[learnandsay]

Well, www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17710570 he says that he wants to meet congressmen. The obvious question is how many congressmen/women want to meet him? I imagine they're busy people. (I did worry when I read that the now deceased founder of the ANP got invited to speak at universities!)

[Secondme]

dd1 was very interested in history all through years 3, 4, 5, 6. (She didn't do juniors, she did first and middle...) and especially ww2. She became interested in the holocaust in year 5 and was asking lots of questions. I told her the basics, and left it up to her to discover more about it. I had to explain to her that it would never happen again, etc, but I still haven't let her read the boy in the striped pajamas. It is too sad. maybe pictures should be kept till later, because they are quite disturbing...
Also I read the silver sword to ds1 recently and it mentions the holocaust in not much detail. I think a better one to try is Once by Morris gleitzman. www.morrisgleitzman.com/once/ Very moving book. Very sad though...lovely book and followed by Then and Now.

[breadandbutterfly]

learnandsay - the point is that the Nazis weren't all nutters and their supporters certainly weren't - and to dismiss them as such makes it more likely that an event like the Holocaust could occur again.

There are numerous groups with 'Nazi' in the title around the world (though not in Germany).

I cannot understand your motivation for denying this.

[learnandsay]

bread, that's not what I'm saying.

If I call myself lumberjack that doesn't make me a lumberjack.
If I call myself Fireman Sam that doesn't make me a fireman.
If I call myself Copper Bill that doesn't make me a policeman.
and so on x 1000

If I call myself Nazi Noonoo that doesn't make me a member of the Nazi Party because the Nazi Party no longer exists. What is makes me is an idiot with ridiculous political ideas and a silly name.

[gabsid]

Also, there are groups and political parties who don't have Nazi in their name but their narrow minded and inward looking right wing view makes them no better, e.g. BNP.

[breadandbutterfly]

But there isn't just one historical entity with the name 'the Nazi party'. There have been lots of people who call themselves Nazis or Fascists and there still are. You seem to have this strange idea that political affiliations can somehow be trademarked - in your analogy, that only 'official' lumberjacks can call themselves lumberjacks. In the real world, if I wear a checked shirt and cut down trees for a living and call myself a lumberjack, then others may refer to me as a lumberjack - I don't have to belong to 'the Lumberjack Party' or union or whatever for this label to be valid.

You seem to have taken it upon yourself to deny that people who call themselves Nazis and who adhere to traditional Nazi views, are not in fact Nazis. I am not sure why you think you have this right.

You may not intend to come across as apologists for Nazis, current or past, but by trying to suggest that Nazism is a purely historical evil, with no current resonance, you misrepresent both the present and the past. Nazism in the past was complex and represented different things to different people then, just as its current adherents are not identical. That does not mean it did not exist then nor that it does not exist now, nor that we should give up trying to prevent its resurgence or the growth of similar, related movements, such as the BNP, Jobbik in Hungary or Golden Dawn in Greece (and many other local variants).

As I said above, quit with the semantics - it is irrelevant to the main point - namely that the most distinctive and unpleasant policies of Nazism are ones that everyone needs to continue to be aware of and that children should be educated about why intolerance, racism and bullying are not acceptable, from a young age. But we should avoid terrifying young children, at the same time, clearly - events of such horror are not suitable for most young children and can be introduced in more detail when they are ready for it.

[gabsid]

Well said!

[infamouspoo]

call them what you like learnandsay, it happenend before and it can happen again. People like that would like it to happen again.
Already we have elected councillors suggesting disabled children are put down to save money. And they fucking get re-elected. Never forget the Nazi's started with disabled children. And no-one piped up. It always starts small.

[breadandbutterfly]

Thank you, gabsid.

And learnandsay - to claim that the Nazis (historical ones) were just 'nutters' is to spectacularly miss the point. Of course an entire nation did not just go 'mad' - the reasons for the success of the Nazis are complex and I suggest you read up on them a little before coming up with such hogwash.

It is too simplistic to suggest they were just born 'evil'. 'Evil' and 'good' are two extremes and most people (everyone?) combine some of each in their make-up. We wish to bring children up to be aware of their and others' potential flaws, so they can take responsibility for being the best human beings they can be.

Interesting musings on this very topic in a recent edition of the FT, entitled "My father, the good Nazi" - about how a son of a very high-ranking Nazi still refuses to come to terms with the evil his father did, because he had some positive aspects too. See:

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7d6214f2-b2be-11e2-8540-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Sh0h6hV8

[learnandsay]

Well, fine. Go to America and start a new party called the Democratic Party or the Republican Party or come to London and start a new party called The Labour Party

and see how far you get if you think that political parties can't be trademarked.

methinks some are in need of a Politics 101 lesson.

[breadandbutterfly]

@ learnandsay

What are you gibbering on about? Why would I wish to start one of these parties when they already exist? But if I wish to start a Nazi party in Germany, I and it will be banned - not because one already exists and it's been 'trademarked' by the 'original' Nazi Party, but because what they did was so horrific that the Germans sensibly do not want to confer democratic respectability on their ideas. It does not mean that the ideology they represented has disappeared, relegated to history. It just means that Nazis in Germany can't join a party of that name if they wish to, nor take part in the democratic process. Nazis in other countries can and do.

The only thing stopping me starting another party called say the Labour party in London or the Democratic party in the US is because it would be mighty confusing as they already exist. It would clearly make more sense to call my party something else. Or if my party followed exactly the same principles as theirs, I'd just join theirs - because I can. But no matter how identical my views as a German are to the original Nazis, I can't join their party. Because it's against German law to do so. But if I'm American, say, I can merrily join the American Nazi party. No 'trademark' restrictions.

How difficult is this to understand?? Do you really think Hitler is going to come back from the grave complaining someone has stolen his trademark??

[learnandsay]

Oh, right. So the Electoral Commission would be merely confused, would it if you tried to register The Labour Party.

[gabsid]

So Hitler's party was called 'The German Workers Party' and later 'National Socialist German Workers Party'. That doesn't immediately strike me as evil too terrible. I can't stand it if politicians use the word evil, especially American one's - its just not a word I like to use to describe anyone.

[breadandbutterfly]

I have to admit I find your views quite concerning, learnandsay. The desire to pretend that the Nazis are all in the past and finished implies that there are therefore no lessons that can be learnt now. It shows extreme naivety about the current political situation in Europe and elsewhere.

[infamouspoo]

I'm struggling to understand learnandsay's point. Except I'm getting a strong feeling of not wanting to teach the Holocaust and not understanding why.

[learnandsay]

You don't know anything about my views. All I'm saying is the Nazi Party no longer exists.

If you want to have a conversation with me about modern fascists then that's a different topic.