Phonics blah blah blah

[expansivegirth]

This link is interesting from the bbc today ... a 'viewpoint' with various contributors questioning the supremacy of phonics (hurray).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19812961

[mrz]

Then he hasn't been taught that is the spelling for the sound "y" and is the spelling for the sound "oo" or it would make sense

[mrz]

ITA was written by the grandson of Isaac Pitman (of shorthand fame) in an attempt to simplify the English spelling system which is fine in theory until they encounter normal books.

[mam29]

Maybe daft questions but whats diffrence between

jolly phonics
ruth miskins phonics
and god knows what phonics our school use?

often see posts on her saying the school really needs to use synthetic phonics?

Are their 2different types of phonics schemes?

dd spelling bad as shes continually spelling phonetically.
they do have spellings tests 10words aweek aske her few weeks later she cant remember them all. In all fairness some of them quite long not everyday words she would reguarly use.

I guess what bothers me the most is

could say this for other subjects too-the commericialism of educational resources and hoarded of parents buying into jolly phonics workbooklets and books. ruth miskin has commericail vested interest in phonics as thats how she makes her living.

The poor parent who doesnt have school age child sees

miskin -who appears credible raving synthetic phonics is only way.
The governement saying this will be the way
then other credible intelligant people like authors saying its not

they were perhaps taught diffrent way

so very confusing.

I guess education always has been a political issue and lots track of no of years each government has banged on about the 3 rrs.

scinentifically I really do think its tough one to judge as theirs so many other factors

[AuntieStella]

My cousin did ITA and it failed him quite badly. I can remember looking at some of his books and thinking how complex it all looked. And I have never been able to understand how adding a writing system that was not used for anything else would help decode the language as written, assist early writing or spelling, or encourage independent reading of ordinary books.

I think the message from it is not to be an early adopter of a novel idea. Straightforward phonics has proved effective for centuries. Twentieth century innovations led to lower, not higher, literacy rates. If it ain't broke...

[EdsRedeemingQualities]

No, he hasn't been taught about 'ou'

or the silent e at the end of words

or 'sh' or 'th' or anything else remotely useful.

So why are they sending him home with books that contain all these words? It's just confusing him. I'm doing my best but blimey.

[EdsRedeemingQualities]

anyway if he's taught that 'ou' sounds like 'oo' what happens when he comes across 'about' or 'sound' or 'loud'

let alone bought, cough, etc etc etc

[AuntieStella]

If you start with what the grapheme looks like, then you are doing it the wrong way round.

Phonics would teach how "ow" can be written, and so the connections would be built from the sound, not by the sight. This means there is less learning than memorising all individual words, which is what a learner would need to do were they to give primacy to a whole word, rather than recognise and decode graphemes and use the correspondences they had been taught.
.

[EdsRedeemingQualities]

But if they are doing it the wrong way round, what can I do about it?

[mrz]

Jolly Phonics was one of the earliest of the modern phonic schemes written by a very experienced teacher. It was published in the early 90s and widely used ... IMHO it works well in reception but less so past basic knowledge. I would also argue that it has elements of analytical phonics - onset and rime.

RWI is hugely success but IMHO there is a cost. It works because it is very prescriptive but I would hate to teach it.

There are different types of phonics

Analytical Phonics uses the analysis of word forms to structure phonic instruction.

The letter patterns in words are often (although not always) be linked to a sound. So the idea is that if a child knows /goat/, /boat/ and /float/, then the word /moat/ will be easy to read, even if it is the first time that it has been seen. It does work to a degree.

Synthetic Phonics teaches the learner the individual sounds in a language (44 ish in English) and then begins to present the different letter patterns that can represent those 44 sounds.

Linguistic Phonics teaches the relationship between spoken words and their written form and learning takes place in a meaningful context of sounds within words and words within text.

Why do you see authors as more credible people as the man next door or the woman in the supermarket ... they aren't educationalists or teachers?

[AuntieStella]

EdsRedeemingQualities: I'm not sure what you can do - that depends to a certain extent on exactly how it's going wrong.

This is a useful chart that Feenie (I think) linked to an earlier phonics thread. It tells you the sounds and lists the ways in which they can be spelt. If your DC is having trouble with a particular sound, it might be worth referring to it, finding out the possible spellings and revising them.

[maverick]

Five types of 'phonicsphobia'

www.phonicsblog.co.uk/#/blog/4565770755/Five-types-of-%27phonicsphobia%27/3865474

[alcofrolic]

mrz I think you underestimate Michael Rosen. He is actively involved with children's literacy, unlike most people in your local Morrison's! Sometimes an interested observer can get a more rounded and realistic picture than the people involved in the day-to-day work - just look at how many consultants are employed by businesses.

[EdsRedeemingQualities]

Thanks guys...I keep writing things in his reading record but she ignores it. Have got meeting next week so will ask then.

[mrz]

No alcofrolic I'm afraid Mr Rosen knows very little about how phonics is taught in schools. Being able to write books for children doesn't mean he can teach all of them to read.

[alcofrolic]

Mrz, I disagree. if you read Rosen's blogs (whether or not you agree with his arguments), he demonstrates a good knowledge of how phonics is taught and of the ideas and people involved in its introduction to schools.

[mrz]

I have read his blogs and I have corresponded with him via the internet alcofrolic ... he isn't an authority by any means ...and the picture he paints of phonics teaching doesn't resemble how phonics is taught in any school I know.

[mrz]

deevybee.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/phonics-screening-sense-and-sensibility.html

[Feenie]

he demonstrates a good knowledge of how phonics is taught

He hasn't a clue! For a long while he insisted that it meant getting rid of any books which had pictures in. When anyone tries to explain what good phonics teaching really means, Rosen reacts like a small child does when they stick their fingers in their ears and chant 'la la la'.

The problem with Rosen is that he is convinced that children just need to be immersed in stories to learn to read and love reading, which we know from bitter experience just isn't the case. It's very important, but on its own it just isn't enough.

[mrz]

Some children will learn just by exposure but would you want to take the risk that your child isn't one of the fortunate few?

[expansivegirth]

The thing is, some children in my kids class will probably benefit from phonic teaching. But there are around 8 kids who are on ORT 10 plus - not as a result of phonics as they were only taught one letter a week in Reception, but because of parental input - and I would rather THEIR time at school was used for something inherently more useful than the ie sound.
I don't care about phonics and spelling. I'm an author (professionally). I can't spell. Luckily, I have spell check.

[mrz]

as they were only taught one letter a week in Reception a great example of a school not teaching phonics

I don't care about phonics and spelling. I'm an author (professionally). are you Mr Rosen?

[Mashabell]

Mrz
Jolly Phonics was one of the earliest of the modern phonic schemes written by a very experienced teacher. It was published in the early 90s and widely used ... IMHO it works well in reception but less so past basic knowledge.
No phonics works well past basic knowledge, because that is all that phonics can really teach: the basic, most common sounds of English graphemes.

The teaching of alternative pronunciations in small groups of words (shout out loud .... - soup, group, you - couple, double, trouble) is oldfashioned rote-learning of sight words, as it has always been. With English spelling being what it is, it remains as necessary as ever, but calling it 'phonics' is simply deceitful tosh and abuse of language - the trick all sellers of snake oil use.

Masha Bell

[expansivegirth]

The school doesn't teach phonics properly, I agree. But it didn't stop my kids from learning to read. I'm relieved for the children who are already well on the way to reading (an usually high proportion in this intake, according to the teacher). I'm not sure it's great for the two thirds who are below expected levels/struggling. I just wish that the eight kids who were put on a table to do something else while the others are learning basic sounds. I object not to a phonic system of learning, but phonics teaching being shoved down everyones throat as a cure all global solution.

[mrz]

masha you really need to read what people write. I know you have a problem with English spelling but it seems you also have problems with comprehension.

Jolly Phonics teaches 42 sounds - great! Then in KS1 we get Jolly Grammar - not great for moving phonic knowledge on.

[Mashabell]

I object not to a phonic system of learning, but phonics teaching being shoved down everyones throat as a cure all global solution.

That's my opinion too. I object even more to virtually all teaching of reading and writing now being called 'phonics' by some.