GRRRRRRRRRRRR Really Pissed Off. (Petty uniform related issue)

[JaneBirkin]

sorry, I'm fuming so I need to post. It's probably ridiculous, but anyway.

I went to get ds1 from school today, and he appeared looking sad and worried. He was wearing his plimsolls.

I said where are your shoes? 'I don't have them'. Well where are they love? 'My teacher told me to take them off'.

We went to his classroom as he said they were in his locker, the teacher was still there. By the time we arrived he had told me that she'd asked him to remove his shoes, because they were 'not school shoes', this morning aroud breaktime, during a lesson, and put on his plimsolls instead which he then had to wear all day, meaning he had slipped over several times in the playground and got very dirty and slightly injured legs. (his plims fit, but aren't suitable for fast outdoor running I think).

I approached the teacher and asked if there was a problem with Ds's shoes. She said they were trainers. They're not - they're Geox, very expensive, orthopaedically whatever, posho proper leather shoes which look very smart (when they are polished!) and are absolutely no different in style to many made by Clarks and Startrite for boys to wear to school.

She also said that they are not black, and should be black.

I refuted this as we are still allowed last year's uniform, which states navy or black shoes (they are somewhere in between) and she then changed her line to 'he told me they weren't his school shoes' bollocks

I left it at that, saying 'well as long as he's still allowed to wear them, because he has been since I bought them 6 months ago, and no one's mentioned it'.

I then saw the HT and said what had happened. she immediately said 'we are not allowing trainers' and I had to explain again that Geox shoes aren't trainers, they're bloody expensive, very good for his feet, and I wouldn't spend £45 on trainers NOR would I make my child wear them all day.

She said there is a crossover in footwear designs these days which makes it difficult for them to discriminate. (irrelevant surely). She also said they're not black. I said that we're still wearing old uniform, it's a phasing in period, and the old uniform was black or navy. she said it was black, had always been black and I was wrong.

Anyway, got home, checked old newsletter, it says clearly black or navy (in bold print). I've sent it to her.

I'm mainly just so bloody furious that my child was approached about this, NOT ME, stigmatised for the rest of the day (ok, not a major deal but it makes him look like he's had an accident and had to change, or something) and they were utterly wrong about the shoes in the first place.

I'm so cross.

[bubbles1112]

Look like shoes to me...I certainly wouldn't buy them for my child to do sport in.

[bebanjo]

So the school has told a child to remove water proof shoes because they look like trainers and to put on inappropriate sport pumps????
if you had sent him in pumps no doubt you would of been told they were not shoes, is it just me???

[Wellthen]

OP I agree with you that:
they look smart enough to pass for school shoes but also allow for running around at play.
Although cost doesnt change the type of shoe, it is annoying to buy a pair and then be told he cant wear them
Shoes are a part of uniform many people could care less about
The teacher should have spoken to you rather than make him wear his PE shoes all day!

But, I do take a little issue with your claim that your child has been punished. He's been asked to remove his shoes and his plims were the only alternative, it wasn't 'youve been bad for wearing the wrong shoes!'. Its unfortunate he slipped over but this obviously wasnt intentional. Im sorry but if wearing plimsols is a harsh punishment then be hugely glad he's not actually naughty! How is it anyway a punishment?

I really dont see that him wearing plimsols makes him look like he had an acident!! If anyone asks he can explain and secondly, surely he'd have to take off his trousers not his shoes. if he had an accident?! So anyone who thought he had is clearly not very observant.

I get that your child was upset and the teacher should have apologised for this. But I think you are feeling more hard done by than you have actually been and need to get some perspective on 'bad' experiences.

[mrz]

www.sarenza.co.uk/geox-j-w-snakem-b-s332-p0000037812?ectrans=1

[Gumby]

What I can't get my head around is my school want trainers to be kept at school for games kit
As well as pe kit
So we have to buy another pair of trainers for home
We could fankle about bringing the kit home every day but no one else does

So ... Sorry for the preamble.... My question is do you guts buy two pairs of trainers each time the feet grow?!?

[lljkk]

I bet y'all object to boots on girls for school shoes, too; but they are WARM and cope with snow, unlike any other girl school shoe style we can find. DD needs shoes that can cope with sleet, puddles and snow (I admit to being fed up with carting wellies along for every journey like we used to, not that DD would be seen dead in wellies anyway).

[lljkk]

I tend to like uniform too, policy but needs to be reasonably applied.
The school was unreasonable.
They said Navy was okay but then objected to it anyway.
The interpretation of what is and isn't a trainer is a bit fuzzy; if they are that fussy, they should publish some very explicit guidelines and speak directly to the child's parents if easy accessible, not pick on the poor child in the moment.

The style of trainer OP linked to is not remotely trendy, it's not in the spirit of what schools need to ban to minimise competitive fashion.

DC school officially wants plimsols for PE but increasingly trainers allowed (encouraged, even, I've been ordered to get some for y5 DD!) because plismols are so pants for half the PE things they want to do. Schools need to be flexible, not rigid about uniform policy. It's for the good of everyone.

[Willowisp]

I think this has become a bit ridiculous...kids at school don't spend all their time running around, they have play time & lunch time. The rest of the time is spent in classroom environments.

The whole point about uniforms is that everyone is the samev& you create a sense of pride. At my dd's school, most of the children wear the badged cardigan or jumper. They all manage to wear school shoes - yes Clark's black shoes with 2 Velcro straps, Mary janes, some wear boots, but with tights when it's very cold, or even change into their shoes at school.

Yes I think the head is being picky about the color - black v navy & I don't know what the shoes are like so unable to comment.

...I'm off to finish my ironing

I think a podiatrist needs to come & give 'official' advice ref suggestions for trainers...IMO they are sweaty horrible things to wear all day & not good for feet at all.

[SeasonsGripings]

Agree my dcs feel very anxious about breaking the uniform code. Girls aren't allowed to wear boots with skirts because the HT doesn't like the way it looks and although I generally think she is very good at her job, my heart sank a little and she lost a chink of my respect when I heard about her rather nonsensical view on boots with skirts.

[JaneBirkin]

Thankyou, Haberdashery, Lljkk, Skewiff, SeasonsGripings and Fellatio - I'm really relived to hear these views on the thread, I think there were one or two earlier as well but most people seemed really keen on saying that the school can decide and should decide and that the shoes were definitely not appropriate - which made me feel really sad.

I know what you mean about having to deal with this petty nonsense. I so wanted to HE my boys but ds1 really didn't want to, after being at school for long enough to make a few good friends, and certainly doesn't want to now.
Plus when we did it for a while, my family were hell bent against it and I'd no support from anyone, so I sent him to school, very reluctantly.

I've always hated and resented this sort of thing. It's as though we and the kids are all stupid. Maybe some parents and children are but that doesn't mean we all need to do what they say to the letter in case we damage our children somehow by making them wear really decent shoes that might just be slightly less formal than what they want.

I dunno - I agree children need to learn what to wear from an early age, in terms of making their own choices and decisions about what's appropriate. This kind of thing just makes them worried, ds is always saying 'but Mum i'll get into trouble if I don't have the right socks' etc etc.

How depressing. most European countries don't have primary uniform. I don't think we should either - life is about more than looking a certain way.

[Haberdashery]

Agree about the clumpy shoes. They look uncomfortable and in no way nice for running about in. I feel the same about girls' school shoes - so many seem to be the mary jane type which is very pretty and smart but not very practical on wet days which is particularly important in a place like the UK! Comfy warm boots or trainers are so much more sensible in the winter, for everybody not just children!

Personally I don't think primary schools should have compulsory uniform at all beyond maybe a sweatshirt (which can after all be quite useful for school trips etc and being able to spot your charges) and a dress code based entirely around practicality and children being the right temperature for the weather and comfortable while working and playing. At primary school, bar maybe the top year or two, it really should be entirely up to the parents to dress their kids appropriately. I also think that children making appropriate choices about what they wear to work in is kind of valuable for the future in a way.

Reading the thread sort of depressed me a bit because I think this is exactly the kind of petty stuff that I will soon be dealing with. I think it's all so unnecessary. Also, meant to say that Geox is hardly a fashion brand - they're comfortable, well-made, hard-wearing shoes which seems to me exactly what a small child should be wearing to school in an ideal world.

[skewiff]

It would make me cross too. But that's the school's uniform policy that would make me cross.

Its primary school!!! Do things really have to be this formal??

We also have bought Geox shoes in the past. They are not cheap, but excellent for children's feet and walking.

I would insist that DS was going to continue wearing his current shoes until we had to buy a new pair.

[lljkk]

yanbu about all of it (even though I know it's not AIBU).

Even if they did have valid objections (and they obviously don't) with his uniform they went about it all wrong.
They should have approached you directly and not made him wear plimsols & made to feel bad about his footwear. I'd be furious about it, too.

I am so glad that our school is pretty relaxed about uniform; there'd be uproar if they tried to pull that sort of crud that OP is dealing with.

[SeasonsGripings]

Have just had a look at the link to the proper school shoes - they are horrible clumpy things. And I know someone's going to say that it isn't about fashion it's about smartness but those shoes are not smart, they look like OAP shoes. Primary aged children need to be comfortable in their foorwear, they spend a great deal of time running around, so shoes that lean towards trainers seem a lot more sensible.

[FellatioNelson]

I agree actuallu. I don't think that having a uniform raises standards either. Anyone who says it does needs to look at the difference between causation and correlation.

However, I do think that if a school has a uniform then it should enforce the correct wearing of it much more rigorously. There is nothing worse than a scruffy mish-mash of half-hearted uniform, worn deliberately badly. If the children and the parents cannot be trusted to respect the uniform then better to get rid of it altogether.

[Haberdashery]

This is a really interesting thread, Jane. We just lost a battle about introducing uniform at our school (it's been non-uniform for ages and ages). All this petty stuff about what exactly constitutes a school shoe and punishing children for their parents' choices is part of why I was so against the idea. But also I don't really believe that uniform stops competition. Surely children just compete in another arena, if they are that way inclined - lunchboxes, coats, hats, gloves, who's got the sweatshirt with the logo instead of a much-washed cheapie from Asda, whatever. I really think that the only way to stop this is to go with non-uniform and teach them immediately and right from the very start that it's what's going on inside your head and how you behave that matters instead of what you wear.

Sympathies to you - it all sounds like a gigantic waste of time that would be better spent on other things.

[JaneBirkin]

Can I buy him these?

They look far more [sporty' to me than his current ones.

[JaneBirkin]

You can choose from here

or here

or here

Tell me...why do most of these look like trainers, and in this instance, are they still acceptable for school if Clarks or Startrite are selling them as 'school shoes'?

[JaneBirkin]

But also, most of the other kids DO wear this style of shoe!

If they are black I suppose it is harder for the teachers to see what the style is. That's why I think they picked on ds.

I have not seen a child at the school wearing formal 'school shoes' ie lace ups? for a very long time if ever, and anyway, ds can't tie laces

Could I actually ask, while I have this thread open, what a 'school shoe' should look like? Can it have velcro straps? What else can it have? I just don't get the difference between our shoes and what nearly all the other kids are wearing, except the colour is navy.

[JaneBirkin]

Thanks FN. That's a sensible post.

They changed the uniform, against great uproar, at the end of last term, and we had to fight it through the governors and in the end got an extra year to phase everything in, which HT was really not pleased about although they had promised us they'd phase it in originally.

They kept going on about how his shoes ought to be black, so I had to point out that navy is in fact fine according to the old code. I just didn't want them telling off other children about the same thing.

Also I really objected to the way they handled it. Aren't there rules about teachers not being allowed to penalise a child for incorrect uniform? Making him feel embarrassed and upset wasn't the right way to do things and that I suppose is what made me so angry.

But normally, I would take your point. Pick your battles in other words!

[FellatioNelson]

Whilst I completely agree with you in theory about the Geox, the quality, etc, they do actually look like trainers. and I understand why they want to avoid trainers. Lots of people make 'school shoes' that are basically trainers masquerading as proper shoes, because they sell to people whose children apparently 'refuse' to wear proper formal shoes.

The uniform is the uniform is the uniform. Don't fight it. Just buy normal school shoes. It really is that easy.

If they turn a blind eye to the casual/sporty styling of your Geox they are on the slippery slope of having to justify it to every parent who doesn't see why their Kyle or Jayden can't come in in his £150 Nikes.

[JaneBirkin]

still no answer and she refused to look at me this morning.

At least they've got their nice teacher instead today. Not too long to go.

[JaneBirkin]

Yes, she has in the past replied within an hour or two.

I think she knows she was out of order and can't be bothered to answer as she will have to apologise.

And she's leaving on ML next week anyway. She's never struck me as someone who gives a stuff tbh which is really really sad in a teacher of small children she was good about a bullying situation between the kids, sorted that out quickly and fairly, but she dosn't half seem to enjoy making them feel embarrassed and humiliated at every opportunity.

She was having a go at ds about something else today - he gave some of his spare paper to another child and she pulled him up on it.

I don't think she always means to be unkind but they don;t get it, when she is harsh, even if she's trying to get a point across. Far, far too dismissive. She needs a secondary class I think. jmo, obviously - I don't know her well.

[teacherwith2kids]

Jane,

I would not expect a primary school teacher to access, let alone reply to, their e-mail during the teaching day. Is your experience that she has replied to previous e-mails on other subjects within a day?

I log on to my e-mail for the first time each day after I get home. No chance to do so in school, and I know that the other teachers in my school are the same. The only e-mail that gets replied to during the school day is mail to the office or directly to the head.

[JaneBirkin]

Thanks, Enid. I'll take a look.

Mighty - I really hope you get a sympathetic school who will allow for your child's needs. It would be quite wrong to insist the poor lad wears proper shoes if it's going to upset him. That's quite different to our situation and I wish you all the best.

I emailed the class teacher about it early this morning, no reply as yet though she was in school all day.
I repeated what I'd said about them being allowed navy, plus the fact the HT had authorised them, and asked her to approach me in future and not ask my child to remove clothing I'd sent him to school in unless it presents a danger to himself or other children.

I think it's bloody rude not to answer, or apologise - she was totally out of order and she knows it.

I don't care if she's leaving at the end of this term. And I won't be paying towards her leaving present either. I hope she doesn't come back!