Levels at end of Y3

[PasstheTwiglets]

In her Y2 SATs, DD was a Level 2B in maths. She has been given extra maths tuition this year because she was struggling and they've assessed her at a Level 2B again. Firstly, is a 2B really bad for Y3, does anybody know? I know it's average for Y2. And secondly, should a child be expected to progress up a level during a year?

[Tonksthecat]

Twiglets maybe you'll be able to encourage her with Mathletics-as-a-fun-computer-activity over the summer when the pressure's off all the homework etc. There's a lot of cool stuff on there..

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Hmm, my DS's school is so called 'outstanding' unfortunately, so gets the shorter OFSTED assessments! My DS in Y4 this year, did firstly the level 2/3 Y4 paper, then the second half of the level 3/4 paper, as the first half repeats the level 3 questions. Not ideal, obviously!

[BusterGut]

They are talking crap Ellen, and not following the guidelines which clearly give the rules for teacher assessment at KS1. (Including the rule that children only need to do one test paper - e.g. the paper that the teacher has assessed the child to be working at.)
Levels are ongoing and do not change between Y2 and 3, allowing a smooth transition between KS1 and 2.

[Tonksthecat]

phew, thanks!

[Feenie]

Not at all, Tonksthecat - 2 sublevels is seen as 'a challenging target' and 'good progress'. You'd fit right in .

[Feenie]

Y2 assessment does use the tests - but only as a small part of the evidence. Y2 teachers are required to use a wealth of evidence besides the tests. However, children may only be tested once. Teacher assessment should be so thorough that teachers know exactly which test to use.

I hope the LEA moderation cycle/OFSTED catch up with your dc's assessment procedures soon then! That has to be shortly.

I think a Y3 teacher who uses the excuse that a level 3 is different in KS1 in their own school, using their own assessment procedures, is hiding their own incompetence, tbh, and should be challenged.

[Tonksthecat]

Ok looks like my 'two sub-levels per year' rule of thumb is mistaken/ a bit ambitious.. it was all a while ago that I was on he other side of the classroom door [wrings hands and shakes head over prospects of returning...]

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

I don't think you've had a similar experience to me, feenie. My DS's school is a primary and they still assess on the single level SATs papers in Y2. All 3 of my DS's did both the level 2 and the level 3 papers and the Y3 job share teachers told me at parents evening that it was harder to get a level 3 in year 3 than in year 2. In the 3 schools I've worked in it's still a commonly held belief that there is a dip in Y3 due to the change in the syllabus. I'm not arguing that that is how it should be, just that that is how it is in those 4 schools.

[Feenie]

I agree with you regarding SATs - that's why it's teacher assessment only now at KS1.

Your anecdotal evidence may well fit in with separate Junior/Infant schools, as I've said.

I would say a Y3 teacher in a primary school is definitely not confident in their school's assessment procedures if they are still peddling this old garbage. Assessment procedures changed a long time ago, and in the case of Y2 are moderated by the LEA.

[Tonksthecat]

Feenie I'm sure ideally there's no difference - and in theory - and in the more streamlined Primary schools.. but overwhelmingly my experience has been different. Sure, that's anecdotal and I have mainly been around separate Junior and Infant schools, but even in playground today at DD's school the mums who were feeling like OP were being confidently told that by the Y 3 teachers.
Anysay SATs are an imperfect tool and not, I think, meant to be definitive

[Feenie]

Tonksthecat There is no difference between teacher assessment between Y2 and Y3, unless (possibly) there are separate infant and junior schools (and even then it shouldn't happen with decent moderation).

Y2 assess using teacher assessment, and have to use the same assessment procedures as the rest of the school. The only difference is the tests - but they form a very small part of the assessment, thereby circumventing the problem of 'a one-off national standardised test on one day'.

Theses changes were made in 2005.

Expected progress is one whole level in 2 years - so from the end of Y3 at a 2b that would be a 3b at the end of Y5 and between a 3a/4c at the end of Y6. To reach a 4b, the OP's child will need to make good or better progress somewhere (all perfectly possible, btw).

[Tonksthecat]

As a former Y3 teacher and now having DD in Year 3 be reassured that it's v common for children to appear to dip/stay static in the transition between Y2 and Y3... for all sorts of reasons, mainly the diff between teacher assessment and a one-off national standardised test on one day.

As I understand it they are expected to progress 2 'subsections of levels' (c/b/a) per year so that if they were 2B at the end of Year three they would hopefully progress to be 3C at the end of year four... then 3A at the end of year five and the magical 4b at the end of year six.

So a child at 2B at the end of year 3 making the expected progress would be bang on the government target at the end of Junior school

Here's your handy little counting on reference guide:
1c 1b 1a 2c 2b 2a 3c 3b 3a 4c 4b 4a 5c 5b 5a

[IndigoBell]

Ok, well she's had the extra tuition not because she's 'really bad' (if you're really bad you don't qualify for the 1:1 tuition) - but because she's at risk of not making 2 levels of progress over 4 years.

I think this is all a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. A 2b end of Y3 is not great, but it doesn't put her on the SEN register or anything.

School just had some extra 1:1 money to use, and so they have given it to her.

There really is no need to panic yet. Every chance she'll catch up next year and make great progress. - And if she doesn't you can panic next year :)

[PassTheTwiglets]

The 2B for DD was on teacher assesment, yes. And yes, the tuition is the 10 hours 1:1, so it ends soon.

[Feenie]

They do have to use the tests, but they are just a very small part of all the evidence which they have to collect - which is why you would think whole school assessment procedures would exist for this. They only sit one test for each subject.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Interesting, even the Y2 teacher assessments used single level SATS papers in May and the children only took each level once IIRC. Time they started using APP more effectively, maybe?

[Feenie]

Teachers at my school say that to get the same level in Y3 as in Y2 actually requires an increased knowledge of the curriculum. A Y2 child taking a Y3 paper may not have been taught enough methods to get the same grade as in a Y2 paper.

That's the danger of assessing in Y3 using only a test - you aren't comparing like with like. Y2 teacher assessment should use whole school assessment procedures - and so should Y3.

[Feenie]

I agree with ASByatt - really poor practice to assess only with a test. How do they assess in Y2 - which HAS to be teacher assessment? APP is a fairly new development - Y2 has been teacher assessment only since 2005!

[IndigoBell]

Is this extra tuition the 10 hours 1:1?

If so, it's a one off thing. You get 10 hours and no more.

[ASByatt]

Well that's really poor, to be honest! So they use the childrens' performance on one particular day, during a test, to measure their progress since the start of the school year??????

Plus, the OP did not say that it was a test that had been used to measure the rate of progress, so it could have been teacher assessment, hence my originial comment, IYSWIM.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

I was talking about test papers, ASB. That's still how they assess the children for maths at the school, they've found the APP maths hard to get their heads around!

[ASByatt]

EllenJane - but it depends whether the level is from a paper or is a teacher assessment level. Your coment about it being harder to achieve the same level only works if the assessment is purely from test papers, which in my experience would be unusual (and disappointing, tbh) in Y 3.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Sounds like you are already doing enough at home, Twiglets!

[PassTheTwiglets]

Oh that's good to know EllenJane, thank you. I've signed her up for Mathletics but it's very hard to get her to do it. What with homework, reading, spelling practice, times table practive and everything else they have to do, there's hardly any time left!