Any tips for primary school appeals?

[smallmotherbigheart]

This is my first time doing this, and I want to do this right. My son didn't get into any of the preferred schools that we listed? Has anyone done an appeal before?

[Panelmember]

Welcome to the team, MyNameIsJess.

[NormanConquest]

Many thanks for the replies. Feel in a bit of a dilemma in that I don't think we have any genuine grounds for appeal, and yet I'd feel I was letting my son down if I didn't at least try to keep him in his current school, where he's been very happy. Anyone got any experience of appealing when you have little real hope of success? Thanks again for any advice.

[Panelmember]

I've certainly heard some appeals which stood no earthly chance, eg (and I'll keep this vague) parents who would not accept the LEA's measurement of the distance to school because they had used a completely different system of measurement and parents of children with disabilities of the sort which most schools should be able to cater for and where the preferred school had no better provision for the particular disability than any other local school. (All YR admissions appeals in my LEA are infant class size cases so we are essentially looking for errors or maladministration).

I am very torn on this. Part of me questions why anyone would want to waste their and the panel's time on unwinnable cases. Another part of me - and this is the part that usually wins - thinks that appealing is your democratic right, that sometimes something turns up which makes an unwinnable case winnable and that you probably won't rest easy until you've tried every option.

What's important, I think, is that you have a realistic notion of your chances of winning (or not) and don't bank on it. Those people who convince themselves that only the preferred school will do may face real problems (practical and emotional) if they don't win their appeal. Always have a Plan B - alternative school in state or private sector, home education, moving house, whatever it may be.

[Panelmember]

MyNameIsJess -What's your opinion on whether LEAs can limit the number of waiting lists that parents can join? You might have seen from other threads that this is an issue in some LEAs. Mine lets people join as many as they like, but some are limiting parents to three lists.

[The3Bears]

Im waiting for an appeal for my Son and you may think it's a case that cannot win panelmember Its not a mistake they have made. However I am going to try because I can and why shouldnt I ?

This is the school I have ALWAYS wanted to send my Son to and I will do anything to help him get there, I am thinking if he doesnt get in Im going to keep him home until the term after he is 5 and we will move house, its going to be a hard year and so hard to move but what can I do ?

There is so many more children being born in our area right now and nothing has been done to ensure all these children can go to a local primary school, we are 2 roads out of the catchment area and the school we've been offered is a huge walk in a morning for a 4 yr old, I dont drive so this is not going to be an option.

I really feel for people who havent been able to get there children into the same school as there siblings but around here the school is overtaken with siblings and it gives new children absolutley no chance of getting in, what is being done to help new children get into schools they want to attend...NOTHING!

Sorry for the rant but I am fed up of people saying dont bother trying, they havent made a mistake and you dont have any chance, but its happened before and for my Son im hoping it can happen again. I wont stop hoping for one minute that he wont get in and will keep all my fingers crossed and hope for a miracle.

[The3Bears]

That he *will get in

[Panelmember]

What I said, 3Bears, is that if it is an infant class size appeal - where the law says that appeal panels can order the school to admit only if there has been an error, maladministration or the admission criteria are unreasonable (ie irrational) - then anyone arguing on any other grounds has to be realistic about their low prospects of success. I also said that, on balance, I don't begrudge anyone having a go, even if their case is weak and they're almost certain to lose. Appeal panels do sometimes allow appeals in circumstances where, if they had followed the law, they would not.

If your allocated school is not an option, have you got another back-up plan in case you do lose the appeal?

[The3Bears]

No I havent, the schools closest are full with waiting lists of 20, My only other option is to keep him out of school as he is 5 in Febuary and we move house and try again, I really dont have another option I can send him the offered school but its a huge walk and there isnt a bus route there so what can I do?

The school has let people in on appeals before, only last year with a girl who attended the preschool and was very shy like my son. I have a nephew in yr 1 and 6 new children started this year in his class alone so it gives me some hope.

[southofthethames]

Well, The3Bears and NormanConquest (and other parents about to do appeals)- look at it this way, if you are on the waiting list, you can still get a place when you move up to first and are then a place comes up. You can still get the place even the appeal is lost. Logically, look at it this way - if you don't appeal, there is only one avenue of getting in. If you do appeal, you have two chances to get in: via the appeal, via the waiting list. Even if the success rate was statistically less than 15%, someone is still getting in. And if there was a rule that they would never, ever, ever let people in because of infant class size, they wouldn't let you appeal in the first place. So logic says if you want to use all possible chances you would appeal, even if chances of success were low. Just be prepared for what to do next if it doesn't work.

(I'm in the same boat having not got any of our 3 choices at all, just not choosing to appeal - but I do see where you're all coming from and I wish everyone the best of luck for the appeal day.)

[southofthethames]

Typo : "even IF the appeal is lost" (line 2).

[mynameisjess]

@Panelmember

Like you, my LEA allows parents to join as many waiting lists as they want, but I can see the logic of limiting it to a certain number. Waiting lists are already too long in many cases, and having parents pushed further down a list by someone that doesn't particularly want the school but just happens to have greater eligibility under the admissions criteria seems a little unfair.

Then again, whilst I can think of some exceptions, most parents I have encountered at appeal have been fairly coordinated in their efforts to get into a specific school - not many have simply "spammed" the waiting lists of every school in the borough.

For my LEA, I think imposing a limit would be unnecessary at present, and would probably simply make a number of people angry.

@The3Bears
I understand your frustration towards the sibling link admission criteria. In fact, it is a common complaint I hear from parents and, to some extent, I sympathise. That said, even when parents have multiple children at the same school, the first child would have had to have got in without a sibling link - relying purely on other admission criteria or the tie-breaker (distance).

But all that aside... I entirely understand your desire to appeal in the face of overwhelming odds. Parents are often put in a very difficult situation when it comes to admissions, often feeling that they had "let down their child". I don't know your case very well (only glanced through some of the previous posts), but all I would say is that don't ever lose sight of the bigger picture. Think about other options and try to realise that 99% of children do fine, even if they don't get their preferred school.

Good luck no matter what you decide to do...

[Anabanu]

Hi
I'm in the same boat as many here in regards to waiting lists,appeals etc. Just wanted to say thanks for the helpful advice that's been posted here. Has helped me to get things into perspective.

[The3Bears]

With the sibling rule I understand one child would have had to get in first however birth rates have risen so fast that 2 yrs ago when my nephew got in there wasnt even a waiting list and now there is 19 on that list alone, nothing is done to deal with the rising birth rate there is no extra teachers, no extra schools nothing so people with their first child cannot have a choice which I think is unfair.

I know that eventually my child would be fine in another school however my point in my appeal is he has attended the preschool there for a yr, he wouldnt talk to anyone there. Luckily he had a cousin put in the same class so would join in with her but his lack of confidence really affected his ability to learn and he has finally started to get used to the surroundings and teachers there (the reception teachers greet them every morning) and is begining to learn at a better rate and catch up. I and his key workers and health visitor agree that moving him now would undo all the work we have all put into trying to help him gain confidence and talk to people more.

I am sure anyone who has an extremely shy child like mine would agree that it's the hardest thing in the world watching your child be the only one on his own, the only child not talking to his peers and seeing how anxious they are in front of anyone else apart from you and close family. I will not go through all this again with him, I wasnt helped as a child with my shyness and as a result I am a very unconfident, quiet adult I get nervous going to shops fgs. I feel it has held me back all my life and I am NOT having that for my child.

[bluesodium1]

Does anyone know whether the distance from home to school is measured from where your property joins the road (i.e. end of the drive) or from your house itself? They have measured from our property which is 40m down our driveway to the road - I think this is wrong and am appealing and if successful should get allocated a place as my daughter missed out by less than 40M. Thanks.

[Panelmember]

It is usually from a datum point on your house to a datum point on the school, but the LEA should be able to confirm that for you.

Whichever system is used, it has to be consistent - so it can't be from your front gate if it's been from the house itself for other applicants. There is only an error if the LEA hasn't stuck to its own system as published in its school admissions booklet or has treated different applications differently.

[bluesodium1]

Thanks for the advice. The admissions booklet / policy dosent specify this detail, but I will contact the admissions team for clarification.

[Jim37]

Hi

Can anyone help with this? We did not get any of our 4 choices for our son although he is first on a reserve list for our 2nd choice. We are going to appeal about his first choice as we love the School and he is at pre-School there.

The intake for this School is 40 so we don't think it is an infant class size issue. I have come across an education authority document which states that altthough the net capacity of the School is 56 the determined admission number of 40 "satisfies the demand for places and is more appropriate to the School facilities". Is the figure of 40 something that can be challenged at appeal?

We have heard some talk of mixed classes which is why the number has been reduced but when we visited the School the head was clear that they did not have mixed classes. The head has also advised us that the figure of 40 is set by the LA and the School has no choice.

Judging by what I have read our other grounds for appeal (logistical, preschool, daughter due to go to same pre-school) are not strong enough but it seems to be that they have made a mistake re anticipated demand for the School.

Thanks for your help

[NormanConquest]

Just to tie up our little story, we've been offered a place at our first choice school after all. Think we were originally 2nd or 3rd on the waiting list, so to anyone else in a similar situation, there is hope that way. Best of luck to everyone.

[mynameisjess]

Congrats NormanConquest/

@Jim37
Your case sounds very interesting and I wish I had more time to respond (off out). The difference between the alleged net capacity assessment (NCA) and the planned admission number is interesting, not because there is a difference, but because of the size. The LEA does not have to make these figures tally, but there are some rules surrounding how far they can deviate from the NCA. However, I need more info before we can discuss this properly. I will try and post tomorrow, but in the meantime some of the others might be able to help.

Just quickly... if the yearly intake is 40, and there are, presumably, 2 classes (?), you will not be having an infant class size appeal - which is good.

[admission]

Jim,
I think you should appeal if for no otehr reason to try and resolve the situation here.
The net capacity is actually a measure of the whole school and is the maximum number of pupils the school can take based on the available classroom space. So if the admission number is 40 then you might expect a net capacity of around 280 (40 x 7 year groups). There are actually two net capacities calculated, the maximum and a figure that is 90% of the maximum and the school and LA are allowed to set the admission number at any figure that is sensible in between the two figures.
An admission number of 40 would normally suggest some mixed age classes and quite often they run with 2 classes of 20 in reception and then 3 classes adding upto 80 for year 1 and 2. The alternative would be 4 classes of 30 over the three infant age groups and this would then be an infant class size case. The key issue is though that with an admission number of 40 the school either has a number of small classrooms or more likely only 10 classrooms in use.
However you are being told that the school does not have mixed age classes, which suggests that you actually have classes of 20 and have 14 classrooms and this ties in with the comment about an admission number of 56. The LA and the school have artificially reduced the admission number and they actually have loads of spare capacity.They can under certain conditions do that but this is one situation where I would minded to reject to reject the schools case. The school is not full, you have classes of 20 when it can take 30 per class or 28 if you stick to the admission number of 56.
All the issues you quote do have a bearing on the outcome of any appeal giben it is almost certainly not infant class size. I would also check what the numbers are in other year groups i suspect that they are not all 40.

[Jim37]

@my nameisjess and @admission thanks for your help.

I assume that we need to get information form the LA re class sizes and number of classrooms. Would we get this as part of the appeal documentation or do we need to ask for it seperately? Will the LA also give information as to why the gap between the numbers is so large?

I have checked the Department for Education website and in 2010 the School had 276 pupils.

One other issue to raise, when we visited the School in June 2010 the headteacher advised that we would get a place if we applied as it was an inclusive school (we asked as we are outside the catchment area). We are not sure whether to use this at our appeal as we don't want to personalise the issues. However it did help us clarify our choices at the time as we were torn between 2 schools (and we would have got into our second choice school if we had put this as first choice). We have spoken to the head since who has acknowledged that he said this and now says that the situation is unprecented i.e many more applications than expected as the school is so successful.

[admission]

The head is a very naughty boy and will get his bottom smacked by the LA for saying that.

Yes you must use it at appeal as the head has given you an expectation of success. Paragraph 1.36 of the admissions code specifically refers to this and says Head teachers or other school officials must not give parents an expectation that their application will be successful. Panels are told that they must give weight to any such pronouncement so I would say it is vital you use it. The other thing is that you do not know what other appealants will say and if you do not use it and 4 or 5 others do, then they give themselves the advantage that you have thrown away.

You need to document when the head said this and especially when he acknowledged saying it for the appeal.

As far as the information is concerned, yes it should be in the documentation but it is best to ask for it now and then you have the maximum amount of time to find and pick holes to undermine the schools case not to admit.

[Appleforme]

I am appealing on behalf of my dd1 into a Middle School (yr.5) so first year. She is 2nd on the waiting list out of 30+ on it right now - I don't know if she'll go up or down. I have a GP, and two other Profs letters, but wondered if I should go back to the Admissions people to give them the info from the GP and 2 other profs since I didn't give them the information in the first place. Would that get her higher on the waiting list or at least keep her from being pushed down? Or do the admission people talk to the appeal people? Thanks ...

[Appleforme]

Oh ... also ... the school has space for 480, but last year only had 450 ... can I argue anything about the school having space even though her Year doesn't?? Thanks

[whattodonowanyone]

Hi there everyone, can't sleep, my daughter wasn't accepted into any of our prefered schools, I have filled out the appeal form as the school she was offered she cannot go to and the only other option is a 15/20 minute drive each way a day. The school we put first is literally on the same road as us and is a very good school and all her friends are going and her nursery she attends now is on the grounds (not that they take that into account now) but what I am annoyed about is my sister who lives a 25 minute walk from me and would have to walk/drive PAST my house to get to this school has been offered a place there? I don't understand? ):