When do schools 'stretch' more able children?

[Feelingsensitive]

Possibly going to be flamed but this is a genuine question. DD is in reception and according to her teacher and previous nursery is 'very able'. She is basically reading/writing/doing maths about a year ahead. She is my first born so I am new to this. At parents evening the teacher said she didnt want to start sending reading books home until after Xmas when they all start learning to read as then she will have loads of requests from other parents to do the same. I can see where she is coming from and am happy to just read at home using library books. The only thing is it sounds to me that DD is not having anything tailored to her abilities. Now I am not suggesting she should be sent home with 'War and Peace' and it could be that her abilities are not even that remarkeable or they all even out at the end of the year. However, this is the second time I have been told she is working about a year ahead of her age group. Should I be asking the school for her to be pushed a bit more or does that come later? Common sense would suggest it shoud come later as they are all still so young and she loves school so I want it to stay that way. I have friends who are teachers but I dont want to ask in case I come across as a prat. Any advice would be appreciated. As long its not too much about me being a PFB pushy mother

[BeenBeta]

Feelingsensitive - all I can say is DONT HOLD YOUR BREATH!

My DSs are at a Prep (private) school and the school slaveishly follows the national curriculum and benchmarks itself against local Primary schools. It is truely excllent for weaker and average children but is simply incapable of pushing more able children like DS1.

I had a pitched battle last night with the Head who we have been trying to persuade for a whole year to give DS1 more to do in maths. I told her that by Yr 6 the other local Prep is pushing its top maths group to do Yr 7 work.

Primary schools and the national currriculum levels do not stretch the most able pupils.

[amidaiwish]

when DD1 started reception she could read anything, inc newspapers.
by day 3 the teacher called me in to find out more.
after half term she didn't have to sit through the phonics letter day by day and was given an exercise book to work through "ditty book" (read-write inc scheme)

she is now in Y2 and has remained ahead, though many others are now very able. it is a very able class with many bright kids and excellent teachers. i completely disagree about teachers meeting minimum targets. I actually think in state schools with 30/class that those struggling and those exceeding get attention/help. it is the ones in the middle i would be more careful of.

i do agree with the others, reception is about learning rules, the structure of school and forming relationships with teachers, helpers, peers. bright children who don't manage this have a miserable time (there is one in DD1s class)

i think finding school easy is a massive gift/advantage. there is plenty you can do to "stretch" her - start her on another language, an instrument, chess etc. encourage her interests e.g. dd1 is fascinated by space, she knows and understands way more than me now. HTH

[emy72]

Primary schools and the national currriculum levels do not stretch the most able pupils.


Beenbeta, I wholeheartedly agree with what you say above, as this is my experience too. And it is painful to watch tbh.

[Tikitikitembo]

Pisces is right - you cannot usually tell which children were reading Harry Potter in reception by year six. Things change all the time. Some children that seemed to struggle with reading in reception go on to be in the G and T group for english later on.

BeenBeta our maths top group (state school)in year six are well into year seven and eight work and many are still not challenged much. All schools are different.

[domesticsluttery]

I'm beginning to wonder whether my DC's school is unusual in being so proactive in differentiating?

For example, DS1 had a spelling test every week from September to half term. He got 100% every week. So, after half term he has been given the year above's spellings instead. I doubt that he is the only child, and I'm sure that other children are extended in areas where they are working above average.

I have never had to ask for extra work for any of my DC. I once mentioned to DS2's teacher that he was reading harder books at home than he was being given at school, which did prompt them to look again at how well he was reading and then move him up, but that is the only time that I have ever had to say anything. I am usually just told at parents evening or by the child themselves that they are being given extension work.

It really is a run of the mill state primary. I find it hard to believe that it is that unusual?

[lovecheese]

domestic - my experience so far sounds similar to yours, and It pisses me off when people slag off state schools and the National Curriculum.

[emy72]

Domesticsluttery, believe me this does not happen in our school.

Y1 teacher doesn't believe in spellings - fair enough - we've not seen anything come home in terms of homework yet.

DD is not listened to read as in the words of her teacher "her books are getting a bit long now so we'll try our best but our time is better spent with children who are struggling". How's that motivating for a 5 year old?

My DD has brought in writing and it has not even been acknowledged, just put in a draw and returned home a few weeks later. DD has been given a writing book but in her words "every time I write in it and I show the teacher they are too busy and tell them they'll look at it later".

I could give zillions of examples but I don't want to depress people and myself. We are trying to sort it but it feels like a lost battle at the moment.

I want to believe in the school and I want to believe this is just a bad patch and things will improve.

[Tikitikitembo]

Spelling tests are not the best way to teach children how to spell.

[Fennel]

domesticsluttery, all 3 of our primary schools have differentiated the work, from the start, though it gets more obvious as they go up the school. They do it in a more subtle way in Reception I think.

but these threads always make me thing I must have particularly dim or acquiescent children as they all manage to be happy and stretched at a standard state school.

I never quite understand the problem with reading book levels, unless you have no books at home and no access to a library. Once they have access to a range of books, an able reader should be capable of stretching themselves. They can read War and Peace, or whatever, at home at 5, the school isn't going to be censoring home reading.

[domesticsluttery]

My DC's school don't do spelling tests until year 3, it doesn't mean that they don't learn to spell though.

They do have homework from Reception onwards. In Reception though it is wonderfully open ended, they have to do a page of their h/w book on a certain topic each week. Say for example it is the letter C, some children might practice writing the letter, some might cut out and glue in lots of pictures of things starting with the letter, some might draw things starting with the letter and write what they are underneath, some might write sentences with words starting with the letter in. You just tailor it to what your child can do (and wants to do!).

The children who are more able at reading do tend to read to the TA or parent helper, which can mean that they aren't assessed as well. This happened to DS2, but as soon as I mentioned something to his teacher she read with him and moved him to more suitable books.

My DC are certainly happy and stretched at school.

[Tikitikitembo]

I know you won't agree emy but homework is overrated as well

Fennel is spot on.

[emy72]

Tikitikitembo - I am not a teacher and I don't feel I should be questioning teaching methods - any will do!

I just know that my DD is not being stretched at school at present. It is fairly obvious tbh. I don't care in which way they want to stretch her, I am not fussed about her getting homework or not.

The teacher has told me that they will be streaming the children at some point this year, at which point she will be given more appropriate work - in the meantime it's up to us to stretch her at home if we want to. Nice!

[domesticsluttery]

I'm not convinced by homework either, neither of the boys did it in Reception (DD has a different teacher). However she enjoys it so we do it.

[Cortina]

Fennel, I think that a child usually has to on a certain level in order to gain a certain SATS score at KS1? For example my son is currently several levels below where I know he should (?) could (?) be. I listen to some children read who are at much higher level and struggle where I know he'd be fluent and have good comprehension. They started ahead of him and have moved forward at a similar rate to him, they just started ahead of him.

I haven't said anything and have confidence in time my son will be re-assessed and find his natural level. He does, like many others, read much more stretching/interesting books at home.

I have a feeling that usually to get a level 3 at the end of year 2 for example, a child will usually be on a certain book band/colour etc? Certainly that seemed to be a correlation last year.

If this information is then used to stream the children in Y3 I can understand why some parents might get anxious about reading levels etc? Although in many ways I think our school is a bit unusual.

[Tikitikitembo]

Well it is helpful to know they will be working at different levels soon. It is only the start of year one. Reception and year one classes can look like chaos they are not really. They do have a lot of kids to deal with and a lot of the work is very active rather than sitting down. I would imagine as your child moves up in school she will find the teaching methods suit her better.

I would do some stuff at home and make sure she has lots of different books all the time. They don't get a lot of one to one that is certain.

[strandeadatsea]

Reading with interest. Dd1 sounds very like OP's. She started reception here in St Lucia this year (she is September born but all the children in her class are already or about to turn 5). It is a very good, private Montessori school with an excellent teacher and a class size of 14. She also had an excellent pre-primary teacher and started reception ahead of all her peers, reading and writing (although she is, by her own admission, hopeless as tennis and running!).

At the moment she is getting good, personal attention and I think between the school and us at home is being suitably stretched. However we return home to the UK in December and she will start at our local primary school. I think she will be ahead of most in her class - but not sure how this will pan out.

However I also agree with those who say reception is about more than the three R's. For her, the most important thing about school is learning socialisation, making friends etc. And just about dealing with a normal school day, silly things like coping with school lunches etc. I am fairly confident the rest will come naturally to her.

[domesticsluttery]

I don't know about SATS, but when children are assessed in my DC's school they are all given the same paper/activity. So regardless of what ORT or whatever level they were on, if they could read and answer the question they would get the mark.

IME a lot of children get to higher levels in Years 1 and 2 simply because their parents are willing t put time in reading the school books with them at home. This is especially true in schools where children are expected to read all of the books on each level. Does this mean that the child whose parents work long hours and so don't have the time to read with them is not as good a reader? Does this mean that the child whose parents don't speak the language that the book is in is not as good a reader? Of course it doesn't.

I can see why people get hung up about reading levels as it is one of the few concrete ways of seeing how your child is progressing. However they are certainly not the be all and end all.

[NoahAndTheWhale]

DD is being extended at school (started Reception in September). She has reading books at her level which at the moment is a higher level than others in her class. I know that they differentiate different tasks they do sometimes by the task given and sometimes by the outcome achieved.

I would like it if she could learn how to put her tights on though (another cold legged child on PE days).

[domesticsluttery]

Just to add that I have a bit of a "thing" about competitive reading levels. I was probably just as guilty of it with PFB DS1 but I have seen another side to it with DS2. He is very ahead at reading and I am fed up of being openly asked by other parents what level he is on, how he learnt to read so well etc. I even once caught another mum nosing in his book bag at the local park!

He can't ride his bike without stabilisers. I don't go round asking the mothers of 6 year olds who can ride their bikes without stabilisers how long they have been doing it, how they learnt to do it, how far they can ride etc. One day DS2 will learn (as soon as he gets his head out of a book and gets on his bike). So why do I have to go into great detail about his reading?

Grr, rant over.

[domesticsluttery]

Tights wearing is good

[strandeadatsea]

Actually yes to hijack the thread this is something I am a little worried about. We have lived in the tropics since dd1 was three - how am I going to get her to learn to put on her own tights (very worried now).

On the subject of reading though - I was very ahead of my peers and was reading pretty well by the time I started school. However, they kept trying to get me to chose books from the kindergarten library. Eventually my mum had to intervene and pursuade them to allow me to chose books from the "big school" library. It was nice to have proper books to read but on the other hand I also remember getting laughed at by some of the boys in my class for being different. So swings and roundabouts and all that.

And here I am at the age of 42 and I suspect everyone else has caught me up! Although I still love books.

[domesticsluttery]

By the time I was 10 my primary school teacher was bringing her own Dickens books from home for me to read as I had read everything in school. I'm fairly confident that after this precocious start everyone else has caught up

[lovecheese]

domestic I am that other mums question you, and probably others too about reading levels. I have only ever been asked once what level my DD2 was on, this by a mum whom I see as someone who would regard my daughter as a "threat" to the superiority of her daughter. IME it's just generally not done, perhaps we are more laid back here!

P.S. I don't think said mum liked my answer

[domesticsluttery]

I don't remember it being an issue with DS1 and his year. But some of the children have gone home and told their parents that DS2 is getting extra help with his reading and that he goes to another class to get books and sometimes goes to another class to do work... This then escalates into the parents wanting to know why he is getting extra help and why their children aren't. It is a total PIA. I'm sure if he was getting extra help because he was behind they wouldn't be so desperate for their children to have the same. One mother actually told me that she thought he was probably autistic and obsessive as he enjoyed going to the library and reading up on different subjects (currently archaeology, which is only really an extension of an interest in dinosaurs at the end of the day).

[emy72]

as your child moves up in school she will find the teaching methods suit her better.

Interesting this as her teacher said that too. I hope so! (Sick of worrying about her tbh)

I also find it interesting as my DS has started at the same school and I am actually finding that the school suits him so much more. If you didn't know us you'd think he's at a different school!

It really is true that one size doesn't fit all and that some children suit very specific environments better than others!