Montessori?

[Paperdolly]

Hi all. Can you tell me your thoughts on Montessori pre schools please? Did your children thrive or did they have too much freedom to do as they please?

[Paperdolly]

Wow! This has turned into a great discussion. . Thank you all again for your contributions.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

In my example above, would Montessori have tolerated an interest in witches and wizards, or would that have been brought back to reality also?

I can see there must be people who appreciate this sort of realism, the kind of people who believe in never "lying" to their children (meaning never induling in fantasy like Santa). Maybe they're right!

But for me, I feel a child's imagination is an amazing thing, an essential part of childhood and I feel very uncomfortable about adults limiting it.

There's loads that's great about Montessori and if EYFS has come about in part because of Montesorri that's an amazing achvement, Maria Montessori's influence will be affecting all early years learners.

But I find it hard to get my head aroudn this.

I went to a primary school run by hippies progressive types. We were encouraged to express our imagination in poetry, art and writing. It was a wonderful place to spend my primary years, I look back with great fondness. The playfulness and journeys into fantasy in our writing and art were an incredibly positive thing IMO. I feel sad for children discouraged from this.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

As for your daughter pretending to be a cat. Great, she is obviously interested in cats

Kinda. An essential part of the game is that she's a talking cat and that she does magic tricks. (She wants me to act surprised that she can do these things, every bloody time). It's not as simple as an interest in cats. It could be extended into learning about cats - or maybe acrobatics - or simply continuing the fantasy role play game to see where it goes!

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

My DCs' "ordinary" school is very keen on bringing the learning to the child, working with their own interests in reception and - as much as they can - when they're older also.

For example, once, the children were interested in witches and wizards.

So the teacher created a "magic club" for those who wanted to join that was really a means to teach maths e.g. measuring potions.

This kind of approach makes much more sense IMO.

However, I don't understand why you wouldn't want children to explore their imagination in any direction it took them. Why not fairies and power rangers? Why limit them in this way?

Sorry to keep going on about it - it's just that I was so surprised that the very thing I thought Montesorri was about (allowing children freedom to direct their own learning) was what I had a problem with, for the one I visited anyway!

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

So are you saying that children are gently discouraged from play based purely in fantasy? (e.g. fairies, power rangers, other made up characters?)

[Hareinthewoods]

Raisins - absolutely no issue with it plastic fruit at all! But if you can give children the opportunity to play with real fruit, the smell, texture, weight etc. Is all very different to a piece of fruit shaped plastic then why wouldn’t you? It’s giving children real experiences so using real coins and pennies in the shop instead of play money would be the same. If the children were pretending to be fairies or power rangers for example I wouldn’t encourage it and extend their play but I also wouldn’t stop them doing it.
As for your daughter pretending to be a cat. Great, she is obviously interested in cats. I would extend that learning, look at different breeds of cats, different coat colours and the noises they make etc. I remember having about 2 terms of children pretending they were dogs. We did lots and lots and lots of learning around dogs until their interests were satisfied.
Because Father Christmas is such a personal thing for different families I would neither confirm or deny it. I would say ‘some people believe....’ I have done many a Christmas play with children dressing up as F.C. or Mrs Christmas for that matter.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

I'm trying to understand what the Montessori idea of embracing realism means in practical terms.

The strict one in my town doesn't do dressing up and role play - not according to the other one we visited anyway.

[PetiteMarseillaise]

At the Montessori nursery my kids went to, we had real fruit and food because they ate them - little kids played and learnt to butter their bread, cut up (safely) a bit of fruit.

The also had plenty of dressing up opportunities, dollhouses, books and a lovely garden to play and do a bit of gardening too IIRC. As for Father Christmas, a particularly memorable singing "assembly" / gathering comes to mind - when the kids were encouraged to dress up in Christmassy styles including lots of Father Christmases.

If you mean, does the Montessori method disabuse young children of the idea of Father Christmas giving gifts, climbing chimneys etc. that did not happen in our experience.

I think you have to choose based on the individual establishment, regardless of the ethos behind it.

I loved that all the kids at our nursery were so calm and happy, learning and doing interesting activities.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

Hare thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

I'm intrigued - please could you explain what's the problem with plastic fruit?

It sounds like role play (in plaves that encourage it) is used for exploring real lufe scenarios, is that right? Would fantasy play be discouraged? Is it in keeping with Montessori for my DD to play a game pretend to be a talking, acrobatic cat (her current favourite) and wear a cat costume for example?

Why is it necessary to explain the tiger is not real?

I'm guessing Father Chrismas is at odds with Montessori philosophy then, would that be right?

[Hareinthewoods]

Raisins - I just want to clarify a few points. I can see you feel very strongly about the Montessori philosophy which is absolutely your choice but I also feel that you would have only observed a session and have limited knowledge about the philosophy.
ALL Montessori Schools (as with any nursery)will have to follow the EYFS, and will of course be inspected by Ofsted too. A Montessori School will help the children achieve the early learning goals by using Montessori materials. Do you know that the EYFS is pretty much based on Montessori philosophy? I know a person who was part of the team updating the new EYFS and most of that team are Montessorians.
It is also an Ofsted requirement that children have access to outdoors at least once a session.
In the UK there are 2 Montessori bodies and training colleges.
AMI - it sounds as if the ‘pure’ school you visited was an AMI school. Yes, they are very strict but this is their interpretation of the philosophy. As I have said in a previous post MONTESSORI is not copyright and some people interpret it in different ways.
MCI - fully follow the Montessori philosophy but also believe in giving the children an education for this century and if Dr Montessori was still alive today would also be adapting to new ideas and technology.
The reason why some nurseries say they do not have factual books or role play is because in all her years of observation Dr Montessori believed that children were only really grounded in reality at around 7 years of age (obviously this varies widely depending on the child) The differentiation between fantasy and reality is a very fine line for young children. In a good Montessori School you will find all the books you mentioned but when reading the story the teacher will remind the children that it is only pretend and a tiger cannot really talk and eat all the cakes.
The same with role play. Most will have role play of some sort but it will be about giving children real experiences. For example a fruit and vegetable shop but using real items and money rather than plastic pretend food.
You ask what happens when the children do become noisy and rowdy. Well I can say that they are children and not robots.Children will be encouraged to work/play using indoor voices and walking indoors. Outdoors they can make as much noise as they want to and run as much as they like. Obviously this doesn’t always go according to plan but a good teaching team will know when to intervene either by encouraging those children to go outdoors or to role model the correct behaviour and gently remind them of the rules indoors.
As for the children using the activities in their own way, that is absolutely fine. If a child or group want to make a tower out of something not for that purpose they should be allowed to do that so long as they are not disturbing others and still taking care of the materials. A good teacher will observe this and make a note to present that specific activity in the ‘correct’ way at another time.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

It's good to hear that some Montessori schools are less rigid about following this aspect than my local Montessori.

However as it's in the doctrine and I know of at least two examples (the one I experienced personally and the one the teacher in that link taught in) then Montessori schools like that do exist.

I wonder how widespread adherence to those aspects are among "proper" Montessori schools.

Certainly something to ask about if you're looking at a Montessori.

[Believeitornot]

My dcs went to a Montessori preschool and had both unrestricted access to outside space and did role play etc (there was a home corner). Yes it was a “proper” Montessori.
They also had children socialising together.

I liked it because they worked to nurture both my dcs and really knew them well.

[Lyraandpant]

@raisinsarenottheonlyfruit I can only speak for my DS’s Nursery but they positively encourage pretend play. They have a home corner, mud kitchen etc. They also have the majority/all of those books there from what I have seen. At his, certainly, the work cycle often spirals into pretend play, using the numicon or tangram to make animal shapes, making a tower/castle out of the cylinders. Staff will show him the objective of the items but if he goes off on a tangeant that is fine too. I think the spirit of Montessori can be observed beautifully alongside EYFS, and help to get them ready for reception class. As with most educational theories, it doesn’t need to be followed to the letter to be effective and beneficial

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

That same teacher said:

"I have been a montessori teacher for 8 years. I was totally fascinated to see the work of the children in a montessori classroom! I thought there was no better way to learn for children until I got my own children. My first daughter who is know 4 was in a montessori school since she is half a year old. The circumstances made it that my second one that is three in August just went to Montessori for a very short time.

My conclusion from the last 4 years: Both children are developing in the same way. There is nothing the younger one is not able to do, even without the montessori training. Same stands for her friends by the way.

I agree with Maria Montessori that children are carrying everything within them selfs. Children half a strong will to learn and do what adults are doing. But as they carry it all in them selfs I now see and believe that this learning approach is totally possible in a free environment where the children can play. Everything will come out in the play! And I am missing the possibility for children to play in the montessori classroom!

Montessori said: Give the children the freedom of choice! Well than, go and do it put some building blocks, play silks and dolls in the classroom and see what happens! The time changed. Children are not the wild ones on romans streets who wanna have responsibilities and know how life works. Children are asked too much these days give them their freedom and let them play!"

This teachers critisims back up the concerns I had when I observed a Montessori school.

I'm sure there are a range of schools that interpret the teachings in different ways. But the one I really didn't like, did claim to be following the method to the letter, and fits with this stuff. I've not looked it up before. It's interesting to be able to easily find the same critisms online that I had when I saw the place. And I so wanted to like it too.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

A comment from a Montessori teacher on that link above, who changed her mind on Montessori's after having her own DC:

"One of my biggest concern and observation during my years as a Montessori teacher is social behavior. Role plays are the best role modeling for good behavior. Waiting for a material does not seem enough to me. Children getting closer to three years of age are seeking for friends, partners or groups to play with. I don t think the one on one is the best way to learn for children age 3 to 6.

...

Where is the creativity and the imagination in a Montessori classroom? One day I observed a child starting to play with animals according to a language work. The teacher kept redirecting the child to the “real sense” of this material. Is that our goal? Is this following the child s deeper soul?"

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

From the website for Montessori Administrators (no idea how credible it is but it fits with what I was told)

"Play, as opposed to didactic learning, is a big deal in the world of Early Child Education.
Montessori has been generally considered anti-play (when it is considered at all).
Which seems strange, since freely chosen, open-ended activity is what we do!
In fact, Montessori has many of the elements identified as part of playful learning (to wit, structure, objects, interactive lessons, free choice, peer interactions, intrinsic rewards, and fun).
What Montessori doesn’t do is pretend play, such as dress-up, toy kitchens, and fantasy.
When you look at the research, the evidence for pretend play (as opposed to play in general) isn’t all that strong one way or the other.
Consequently, we don’t really know if adding pretend play to Montessori environments would help or hurt."

I'm very keen on evidence based parenting. However I don't need evidence to tell me that role play is almost certainly good for kids! If there's no evidence then let's let them do it unless we find out it's best not to, not the other way round please!

www.mariamontessori.com/2013/05/07/what-you-need-to-know-about-montessori-and-play/

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

dowsabel there are two Montessori schools in my town. At one of them, you can do all those things.

But not at the one that is keen to tell everyone that it's following the Montessori method correctly.

The one you can role play and read books with animal characters in openly says it's not "pure" Montessori - even though it's name is " Montessori school" and these were two of the reasons the teachers gave that it's not.

[dowsabel]

I don’t recognise any of the issues posted by those concerned about Montessori. Mine played closely with friends, role played, read the tiger that came to tea etc etc.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

Also - banning books that anthrophomorphise animals / objects - what gives?!
There may be sound reasons in the theoretical plane - but back in reality, in the culture we live in - so much of our shared culture of childhood has animal characters. For me, imagination and good children's literature win out over ideas about realism any day!

So, just to check I've understood correctly, the following wouldn't be allowed in a Montessori school, is that right?

The Tiger Who Came To Tea
Where the Wild things Are
The Very Hungry Catepillar
Where's Spot
Peter Rabbit
The Gruffalo, Room on the Broom and most Julia Donaldson books
Each Peach Pear Plum
Dear Zoo
Lost and Found
Owl Babies
The Ugly Duckling
Bagpuss

Etc etc ...

It seems deeply ironic to me that a method that markets itself as letting children follow their own path is in fact so dogmatic in a way that limits free expression, imagination and good literature!

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

I was surprised to learn at the non-pure Montessori school that "pure" Montessori schools discourage role play / pretend play.

Can anyone explain to me why that is? I feel very uncomfortable about sending my child to a place that stiffles her imagination and creativity in this way and that teaches her not to explore role play with her friends.

My DD loves the "home corner" at the excellent nursery she went to. I'd often have to "eat" a pretend pizza (or whatever) that her and her friends had cooked up, when I came to pick her up from nursery. It was a richly inventive game full of learning opportunities. I feel very uncomfortable about a childcare setting that discourages this kind of play for early years.

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

That should say. "There are some awesome nurseries and state
reception classes out there"

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

children are free to choose their own activities and work with them for as long as they want to but there are also boundaries such as not distributing others work if they are busy, working respectfully. The teachers will also know when to step in and introduce new activities.

That all sounds lovely on "paper" but this is the bit that I am very uncomfortable with. When I saw it in action, it amounted to the teacher stopping children from coming together to play with each other on their own terms and manipulating them back to working on their own, or in a very structured way. Children were not allowed to just be, with each other.

At 4 years old, I think it's absolutely essential for my child to learn to socialise and play with others, not to only do that at playtime.

It's not genuinely child led. From what I saw, the adults set narrow confines that the children have to stay within. Yes the class was calm and quiet. But - what do they do with the noisy children I wonder? Are they welcome?

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

I viewed two Montesorri schools for DD - one "proper" Montessori as in it sticks to the original concepts. The other used a Montessori set up but incorporated some aspects of EYFS (early years foundation stage) also.

I thought I'd love them. I really didn't.

The whole premise is learning through play, which was revolutionary at the time, but now the rest of the system has not only caught up but overtaken it IMO. When the Maria Montessori started teaching her method at the beginning of the 20th century I have no doubt it was revolutionaly and light years ahead of the rigid school system of the time.

But times have changed. EYFS is all about learning through play.

I found Montessori surprisingly structured. I stayed and observed for an hour and a half and I saw children encouraged to explore for themselves - but only within narrow confines.

The tables were for one. Children could choose their own activities but then they were encouraged to site at a table or on a mat by themselves to do thier "work".

Twice I saw children come together to play but they were gently discouraged. Once two girls started playing a peek-a-bo game with one of the mats. They were encouraged to stop this and return to their activities. I felt sorry for them that they weren't allowed to just be, they were having a lovely time and learnign about socialisation o thier own terms.

Another time, two children started dancing. The teacher said "everyone, let's dance" and got the children to stop what they were doing - including the two who were dancing. They formed a circle and got all the children to take turns in going into the middle to dance. Which was fine for the others, it was a nice thing to do - but again the children who were expressing themselves naturally on their own terms, were prevented from doing that and their play was formalised.

In the other school, the non-purist one, they explained that they blend EYFS, introducing things that "pure" Montessori schools don't to like role-play and allowing books with animals characters in.

They pointed our that Maria Montessori was a pinoneer of her time and they believed that were she alive today she'd update her philosophy accessing the latest research, not stick dogmatically to ideas that are 100 years old.

I was disappointed that neither of the settings offered the DCs free access to the outdoors - playtimes happened in a structured way. That's not up to date thinking for early years.

There are some awesome state nurseries and reception classes out there. EYFS really is a child-centered structure, with learning through play at the centre. A lot of the things Montessori claims to be, you will find done better if you have an exfcellent nursery or school near you that embraces EYFS IMO. (Or whatever the lasted incarnation is called!).

Letting children be independent and cut with knives for example, isn't new or revolutionary. My state-run nursery made a big deal out of that kind of stuff too (so my parents tell me) and that was 40 years ago!

[dowsabel]

I used Montessori pre school. It suited mine very well indeed. One took longer to adjust to main stream reception than the other but I don’t think that was down to the Montessori method. When I go in non Montessori childcare settings I am overwhelmed by the noise and manicness of it all. The quieter less overwhelming environment at our MNursery made me feel better about returning to work. I did find it funny seeing 2-3 year olds wearing aprons chopping cucumber with plastic knives and making sandwiches for the rest of the nursery. I’m sure there was some kind of cottage industry going on haha! Seriously I have no regrets and I thought Montessori was a cult before I researched more

[Paperdolly]

Thanks Lyraandplant.