TimesOnline has just published an article on the NEW swine flu vaccine - and recommends that pregnant women ask for this in addition to last year's if they had it.

[JosephineClaire]

Has anyone else heard this?

I had a swine flu vaccine at about 10 weeks - I'm now wondering if I need another at 34 weeks...

[Dylthan]

Tangle- I'm so sorry for your loss

Appletrees- my last post wasn't a flippant comment I genuinly want to understand your thought process. If you felt in no way able to cope with a child with a child with learning difficulties then I could understand your decision and respect it.

My dh has an autistic cousin she's 15 and lovely and bright. I just don't like it being made out as if an autistic childs life is not worth living and there for worth risking (as I said if people genuinly feel they couldn't cope then I wouldn't judge and I could understand your choice)

I work in a hospital it's not possible to simply avoid viruses. The reason I took the vaccine while pregnant is that I didn't feel the risk of the vaccine was high enough to justify not getting it. I also have a ds and felt it wasn't worth risking my life for a possible risk that my dd would be born with problems. I couldn't bear to leave ds without a mother.

I have to add that not all pregnant woman who don't get the vaccine will get flu and not all pregnant woman who get flu will die or lose their babies. The choice is up to each individual woman to weigh up the risks for themselfs


I'm just giving my personal reasons for choosing to get the vaccine

[CuppaTeaJanice]

I spoke to my doctor earlier in the year to ask for a SF jab, because I was planning on TTC in the summer, and would rather have had the jab before I got pregnant. I was told SF was 'the pandemic that never was', they didn't have any vaccines left and it was unlikely to come back to any significant extent.

I'd also heard about this triple flu vax that was being developed, and how certain types of it had been withdrawn in Australia because of safety issues.

So now I'm pregnant, I'll be pretty pissed off if I'm now put in a position where I am advised to have the injection during my pregnancy. Although there haven't been many reports of risks with the SF vaccine - a possible link to narcolepsy has been mooted but I don't think proved afaik - when you have the responsibility of the welfare of another person developing inside you, unknown risks are something you don't want to be facing.

[DuelingFanjo]

That's really interesting CuppaTea! So if someoe plans ahead then they are turned away but it seems to me that if a pregnant woman refuses to have the vaccine then she is tut-tutted at.

[Appletrees]

Dylthan: I understand it wasn't flippant. No, I would not prefer a child of mine to die rather than have autism. Is that what you want?

But the question is redundant. You quantify the risk as death or autism. We know neither the risks nor the benefits. Neither outcome is certain.

The only certainty a mother can provide is the decision to take the jab. In which case she certainly will take the risk of adverse effects and the possibility of some protection. She still has the risk of being exposed to swine flu, and, if exposed, to catch it, though that risk may be reduced. She can take precautions about exposure but is less likely to.

Without the jab, she is not certain to be exposed to flu, not certain to suffer badly with it and not certain to have an affected pregnancy. She has the risk of being exposed, catching it and having an affected pregnancy. She is more likely to take precautions to prevent exposure.

It is a very personal decision and it is very good that on this thread people aren't saying "do this, do that". Just discussing.

[Dylthan]

Appletrees- I wasn't trying to hassle you just understand. Your not wrong that the only certain thing is that if you take the vaccine then the only certainty is that you have exposed your baby to somthing I feel better able to understand that view point and thank you for explaining it to me. I think when you have somthing in your head it's hard to see the other side.

I still stand by and defend my choice. I feel it was right for me and would do it again if I had to for all the reasons I previously said.

But I can see why you would make the desision from the other side and can respect that.

[larrygrylls]

In answer to a few questions on here.

DuelingFanjo,

Having seen a programme on viruses, a professor explained why they were more prevalent in winter. You normally pick them up from touching surfaces which an infected person has touched (hence the way handwashing helps). Their survival times are temperature dependent. In summer, maybe a few hours but in winter 2-3 days.

Why vaccinate pregnant women?

Pregnancy is an immunosuppressed state. Women's bodies have to suppress a part of their immune system in order not to reject the foetus/embryo. However the cost is it works less well against infectious disease.

How dangerous is it to the baby:

In the first trimester, quite dangerous. Beyond then, the main danger is to the mother, although the baby can get distressed. Tangle's story above is very distressing yet it is the exception rather than the rule with most fevers. However, the danger to the mother is not minimal.

How dangerous are vaccines:

Ahh, the contentious one. Everything I have ever read or heard (and I have looked around a lot and discussed it with senior doctors etc) has led me to believe that they are very safe. The anti MMR story has been discredited and the anti vaccine loby are now left with the "oh, if you have a mitochondrial DNA defect, it might be dangerous". Well, yes it might but that is 1/30,000 instead of the much larger probability of getting really sick or worse from a dangerous disease.

My wife is in her third trimester and recently spent a night in hospital with a viral disease which might have been flu. The baby's heartrate was up to 200 (when the doctor finally found it). It was a really unpleasant experience for all of us.

I would seriously advise anyone who is pregnant to get vaccinated if they can.

[larrygrylls]

"How dangerous is it to the baby" should read
"how dangerous is flu to the baby"

[CJ2010]

I was pregnant last year when It all kicked off about the swine flu. My consultant tried to bully me into having the jab and he was really nasty when I tried to get across my point that I was scared of having it done because noone knows the long term effects of it. Anyway, I stuck to my guns and said NO!! My midwife thought I had made the right decision.

Personally, I wouldn't have any flu jab, unless perhaps you have asthma or a condition that makes you vulnerable to picking things up. If you are healthy, let your body fight infections itself, its what it is designed to do.

[larrygrylls]

CJ2010,

It is a fact that pregnancy is an immunosuppressed state. Your body makes a compromise in pregnancy between the baby and your immunity. Sure, you do still have an immune system and the probability is that you will get better. But the odds are far less in your favour when you are pregnant.

[Appletrees]

"The anti MMR story has been discredited" -- not true.

The anti vaccine loby are now left with the "oh, if you have a mitochondrial DNA defect, it might be dangerous". -- not true

Well, yes it might but that is 1/30,000 instead of the much larger probability of getting really sick or worse from a dangerous disease -- not true.

[Tangle]

Just for clarification, when I had SF I did not have a fever. What I did wind up with was a BP of 60/30 and oxygenation levels of about 50%. Stay there too long and you're into multiple organ failure territory. All the evidence we have states that DD2 didn't die because she was infected with SF, or because I had a fever - she died because my body was using all its resources to keep me alive.

I do also recognize that I was unlucky - many pregnant women didn't contract SF at all, and of those that did, many didn't experience problems.

[larrygrylls]

Appletrees,

Seriously. I am here to give some facts and advice to people who may not know them. Also to share my own story about my pregnant wife and how ill she got with a fever.

If you have some real science behind what you say, I would love to hear it. However, if you see vaccination as some great conspiracy, then I am really not interested.

[larrygrylls]

Tangle,

It sounds like you are lucky to be alive yourself. What a horrible experience!

[GoodVibrations]

Very interesting debate and some really useful info on here.

I am currently facing the same dilemma - early pregnancy and have been offered and advised by my GP to have the vaccine.

Larry your post is along the same lines of my GP advice and your point re. immunity in pregnancy is very valid. I am currently fighting a stomach bug. My DH and DD both had it before me and recovered within a couple of days. I have been wiped out completely, have barely been able to get out of bed and have lost weight. Before this illness I considered myself to be very healthy with a strong immune system and barely caught so much as a cold (I haven't been 'ill' in years). I cannot imagine how my body would currently cope with flu.

The uncertainty around vaccines and lack of available research will fuel this debate for a long time. After reading this thread I've decided to have the vaccine, but ultimately it is a personal choice.

[PerfectDromedary]

Tangle Thanks for your bravery in talking about your experiences - it's really important to hear such a personal story as well as the scientific evidence when I'm pregnant and trying to make up my mind about the flu jab.

[GoodVibrations]

Meant "lack of available research on pregnant women"

[larrygrylls]

Goodvibrations,

Everything is a personal choice and I am glad you have made the one you have.

However, the facts about vaccine safety are not really up for debate among anyone who is a scientist or who can understand statistics at a meaningful level.

Measles is making a comeback amongst the middle classes in areas around here because people are still refusing the MMR and children are going blind. The doctor who originally found the link between autism and the MMR was jailed for fraud and struck off the medical register for buying blood from his childrens' friends. His flawed "research" was funded by solicitors who were pursuing a group action against a drug company.

I really cannot understand why this debate continues. It would be nice to pretend it was just "interesting" but it is leading to children getting diseases unnecessarily and some losing their sight and lives.

[larrygrylls]

Goodvibrations,

We crossed posts. I did not know you were solely talking of pregnant women.

[GoodVibrations]

Yes Larry I was referring to the debate, and my own personal situation, regarding SF vaccine when pregnant, and not in the wider context of vaccines in general

[jobobpip08]

Hugs Tangle I've been there too 38+4 (not due to swine flu).

There was quite alot in the media from USA about pregnant women who had the SF jab and within days had miscarried/had stillbirths.
My friend who was pregnant at the time told me of 2 women here (Britain) who lost their babies over 30 weeks, again within days of having the jab. I do realise that there were vaccinations made by different companies which were being used over there.

I have DS1, 6, and DS2 (stillborn 2 years ago) neither time was I offered any kind of flu jab whilst pregnant or in the 6 months after, I am currently 7 months pregnant and nobody has said a word. I did feel pressured into giving DS1 the SF jab last year, something I am still not happy with myself about.

[Appletrees]

"Seriously. I am here to give some facts."

They are not facts.

[larrygrylls]

Appletrees,

Which facts are not facts and why, please?

[hatebeak]

Appletrees, considering you believe the anti-MMR story has NOT been discredited, you don't seem like the best arbiter of what is a fact and what is not.

[Wholelottalove]

Are there different policies in different areas? I am 29 weeks pregnant, just had a midwife appointment and nothing at all was mentioned about SF. I haven't been offered the jab.

I had SF last year and wouldn't want to repeat the experience, especially not when pregnant with squished up lungs. As I had Tamiflu last year, I'm not sure whether that would give some protection.

As a slight aside, I always think it odd that I am asked to go to the doctors for antenatal appointments where I sit waiting for 30 minutes in a room full of poorly people. I would imagine a prime location to avoid if you don't want to get SF would be doctors' waiting rooms as even though people are told to stay at home, they don't. It's a shame they can't hold the antenatal clinics somewhere like children's centres.

[Dylthan]

wholelottalove - no tamiflu will give you no protection, it simply lessens symptoms when you get flu and only if given somthing like 24 hrs after symptoms appear. It will not protect you from flu.

Your surgery may not of started vaccinating yet they may be waiting on stock I'm not sure. You will be entitled to the vaccine if you ask though discuss it with your midwife.