June 08 - 118 (and counting) sleeps till Chistmas, but don't tell Deb!

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Welcome to our new, cosy thread. Log fires, big jumpers and Christmas shopping .

What do you mean it's still August?!

[neenz]

Amber, welcome back! It's so exciting that you are getting so big now - how long to go?

Knitting, it's dreadful isn't it when you are so exhausted. I agree with just letting them nap as long as they want in the day - well maybe no more than 2hrs. lol at Amber's sleep consultant taking £250 and saying just leave them to cry - I know you have tried that anyway. Don't know whether it would work for M but tbh when I was doing CC with the twins I was just grateful to be able to go back to sleep even though they were screaming . Are you a bit soft on A and M cos they were such longed-for children? My SIL says she is soft on hers because she had to have fertility treatment and took 3yrs to conceive her first. And says her twins spent 2wks in SCBU so she is going to be soft on them too! It's to be expected in some ways I suppose.

Daniel went for his 8wk check today (all fine) and his jabs. He was very brave bless him

[neenz]

MIL had the twins this morn - they walked past the fire station while they were getting the fire engine out. So MIL took the DTs over and they let Esther sit in the cab. Theo didn't want to! MIL said she was made up. They put the flashing lights on and everything. Just sad I missed it

[systemsaddict]

LOL Neenz yes I remember that slightly guilty sense of relief when I first started leaving Liam to cry! I felt far more in control overall, too. It helped that he really benefited from it quickly though, he desperately needs his sleep and CC worked quickly with him. I was never able to do it with Caitlin quite the same way, she seems to get more distressed and determined to stay awake instead . Wouldn't it be easy if they all did the same thing?

[Amberc]

Neenz - the fire engine thing sounds amazing! Hope MIL had a camera on her! I now have 14 weesk to get to 38 weeks which is my preferred date for a c section. How much mnore can I grow?!!!

[KnittingisbetterthanTherapy]

Thank you everyone - systems, we had always gone with that maxim (despite being told constantly by MIL to keep them all day so they sleep at night ) but A had reached a point where he was having 3-4hr naps and we did wonder whether this was affecting his sleep. M also sleeps for England in the day - the nursery staff can't quite believe it!

As for the 'let them cry' thing, systems, Amber and Neenz, can I ask a stupid question - do you literally mean let them cry and ignore them or do you mean go in and out (i.e. CC). And at what time do you do this? Our big problems are in the night (happy to try leaving them then) and 5am (would it work to leave him then?). How do you know whether something is wrong (dirty nappy for example)? I'm happy to try it (happy to try anything !) but just wanted to clarify .

Lol Neenz at me being too soft on them! I'm not sure whether I am or not tbh. We have done CC with both of them so not sure whether we are soft, but maybe I am! Desperate now though, and the problem is I'm being increasingly impatient with them during the day because of exhaustion so not good for any of us.

Oh and huge re: the firemen. I have such a thing for firemen!

[DomesticGoddessInTraining]

Sending positive sleep vibes your way Knitting (because I have nothing useful to offer). I'm all for CC, but I'm very weak when it comes to night time waking. However, we are sort of lucky in that S will come through to our bed if he wakes in the night and go back to sleep.



Must go revise, must go revise...

However, my mother is demanding suggestions for Christmas presents and while I've done my Christmas shopping list, I haven't thought of anything for me! Hmmm. Just 5 minutes of surfing...



Welcome back Amber - sorry you got stranded!

[KnittingisbetterthanTherapy]

Have just started this thread too .

Lol at rod for your own back - believe me, if our two would sleep in our bed we'd have them in there every night!

[Amberc]

Knitting, we got a sleep cons in when Luke was waking at 5am - quite a while ago but can't remember exactly - at least a year ago maybe more. She said leave him for 20 minutes without going in. We did and he went back to sleep. It's different now he's older and more willful. Luke sleeps for 1.5 hours in the day. It seems to be be enough. I would definitely limit Alex if he's sleeping 3-4 hours. That's definitely too much and may well be supplementing his night sleep.

I am well excited about tomorrow. It's Mark's 40th and I have booked lunch at the waterside inn (3 michelin stars) and the best bit - I have hired (at ridiculous expense) an Aston Martin DB9 for 24 hours. I have never been in such a posh car! We are going to pick Luke up from nursery in it too - hee hee!!

[DebInAustria]

Knitting, have replied in your thread, I'm glad to hear what else other lo's have in their cots, I was beginning to think it was just Ethan

Amber - you're not driving the car are you? Hope Mark has a great day.

Neenz - Ethan would have loved the fire engine visit

[DomesticGoddessInTraining]

My back is completely knackered though Knitting ! I woke up this morning to find S lying on my back like it was a pillow. (Now, I know I'm a few stone pounds overweight, but my back isn't THAT cuddly).

Amber - I hope you have a fab day tomorrow.

Neenz - fire engine story is fab.

[neenz]

Amber, sounds fab! Have a great day.

Knitting, I would go in when he first starts crying, maybe give him a quick cuddle and say 'it's still night time go back to sleep' (whatever feels right), then leave it 10 mins, go back in do same, then 20 mins, go back in do same etc and every 20 mins then. If you fall asleep and it is more than 20 mins don't worry at least you are getting some sleep! IME eventually they realise it is not worth crying and he will either go back to sleep or play with his toys. Stick with it for 3 days and if there is no improvement then maybe there is nothing you can do but you should see some improvement if you don't give in. I would actually leave him until 7am. Are they in the same room? I know it sounds daft cos you'd worry they'd wake each other but it might give them comfort/company if they are in together. T and E never wake each other when they are crying. T screamed for an hour on first night in bed (he had a dirty nappy)and E never stirred! But they love to chat when they wake and just wait til we go get them. I think usually you can tell if it dirty nappy, illness etc. You can always give him 5/10ml Calpol if you suspect it might be something. It won't hurt for a few days cos you never know.

T and E have all the same things in their cot/bed as A does!

[PenguinNZ]

Bit busy this week as DH has just started a new job, but wanted to pop in and give Knitting a huge hug for being brave enough to go to the GP. Please email me if I can help in anyway, I've got some books and stuff that I'm over optimistically thinking of getting rid of (how common is PND 2nd time round...?) and just wanted to let you know that I know how you are feeling. And it does get better, although you might need to move to NZ. (But only in summer).

Thank you Neenz, think I'll just stick with the baby bjorn then, I loved it last time, although it's not too popular on MN.

[abdnhiker]

knitting sorry you're having such a rough time although I think it's really good you're going to start therapy. I think your age gap is the toughest, I don't know anyone who's sailed through it! Neither of my two have slept well until age two either but the difference was I only had one up each night.

We found that taking our boys naps away once they'd started sleeping longer in the day (over 2.5 hours) and waking up miserable actually did make them sleep longer at night but it took a very very grumpy three weeks to make the transition. CC worked with Duncan, but not with Fraser, he would revert to getting back up at night within a few nights so it felt pointless. Now if he's up in the night we just go in and say "it's the middle of the night, go to sleep" and he will. Of course we had to get up in the first place...

Also Fraser didn't start sleeping well at all until he shared a room with Duncan.

[PiggyPenguin]

Hope it gets better soon, Knitting, lack of sleep is the worst thing in the world.

Amber let us know how Mark's birthday goes, it sounds fab!

[Rolf]

Knitting I remember falling asleep while reading to my boys, when they were the ages yours are at. I'd wake up with a start and realise that I'd been burbling instead of reading. And I used to think I was going to throw up, I was so tired, and had tingling prickly skin sometimes. Sometimes I'd be sitting at the station waiting for my train to work and the train would come and I'd forget to get on it. I saw a picture of myself and my eyes were red-rimmed and my skin was grey. Abdn is right, this is really hard and whilst it's not practical advice hopefully it helps to know that what you're experiencing is very normal . Comfort eating when you're exhausted is awful, too. I still comfort eat (a lot ) and I get a lot more sleep than you do.

[systemsaddict]

Knitting we started with CC with Liam but each time we went in he got very angry when we left again so quite quickly went for 'extinction' ie leaving him completely. The first time he screamed for 45 minutes, the second time 20 minutes, thereafter between 0 and 10 minutes. At 5am we used to leave him 10 minutes and he would always go off again in that time. I treated it as an 'experiment', had a little table written down of what I'd tried, how long I'd left him for, and the effect it had had - helped me feel a bit more detached from it all.

Have posted on your other thread too - think you're doing the right thing trying to look at all the possibilities.

On comfort eating, my theory is that the sleep deprivation screws up your endocrine system so insulin levels are all over the place and food cravings become unbearable - I think it's more than a psychological issue, it's a very physical thing.

[KnittingisbetterthanTherapy]

Thank you for all your lovely messages - sat at work trying not to cry . Gearing myself up for a Child Protection meeting which I definitely cannot break down in so need to take some deep breaths and go have a cuppa I think.

DG, I read your post as "my back is completely knackered through knitting" and wondered what kind of extreme knitting you did!

Well, last night we did the 'ignore tactic'. A woke up at 1am (crying for one of his bears ) but went back quite quickly, M woke at 5am and cried for about 10 mins before going back to sleep, and A did the same at about 5.45am - they both woke at 6.30am. Not bad really . They are in a room together which works pretty well and I think they do like the company. I'm on my own tonight so wish me luck.

penguin, thank you for offer of resources but don't get rid of anything you may need just in case - and I don't mean to say that to be depressing (sorry, poor choice of words but you know what I mean).

The eating is pretty out of control at the moment so may need to ask for help sooner. I have an office to myself at work which doesn't help as able to binge in secret and job is incredibly stressful. I'm really enjoying it but beginning to wonder whether it was the best thing for my health at the moment tbh .

Right, better go to this meeting . . .

[KnittingisbetterthanTherapy]

Oh and thought we should update the thread title.

[systemsaddict]

That sounds really promising Knitting! The other thing I was going to say is that I understand a lot of babies / toddlers do have a period of very light sleep at around 5 when they may be crying out, but aren't necessarily really aware of what's going on, so it particularly makes sense to leave them for a bit at that early morning waking.

I'm not surprised you feel eating is out of control with everything else you are dealing with; there have been times over the past few years when that feeling of physical release from food has been the only thing that has kept me going. Two close together, plus work, plus sleep deprivation is a lot to be dealing with, and as a coping strategy food does have a very powerful and immediate effect. Is there any way you could 'bracket off' the eating for a while, rather than thinking of it as another thing you have to deal with right now? It might settle down to a level you're happier with on its own, once life as a whole gets easier?

[DebInAustria]

Dewin where are you?

[Amberc]

Knitting - when does your therapy start? I wouldn't worry about the eating yet as systems says. You can deal with that at a later date when things are calmer.

We had a great birthday yesterday. The lunch was out of this world - we had the 8 course taster menu - sublime. Michel Roux senior was having his lunch there too! The car was a disaster though as it had an accident the night before and a lorry crashed into it! The poor guy was in A&E and found us a replacement but when it turned up it wasn't as good as the one I had ordered so we sent it away and will hire it again another time. Hey ho...