Tory Policy on Inclusion in Education

[LadyBlaBlah]

One of my friends has a girl with Retts Syndrome who attends mainstream school. She has been in touch with her local MP about their policies on inclusion ( she is totally FOR inclusion, 100%) and she is getting very wooly answers back.

Do you guys know any more about their policies?

Just cutting and pasting a recent email from her here:

"I am extremely worried about the Conservatives education manifesto, and thought I would circulate it to those of you in my address book that have a particular interest in education. The last section of the manifesto states that the Conservatives will end the bias towards the inclusion of children with special needs in mainstream school. I met with David Rutley a few weeks ago (the Macclesfield Conservative candidate). He was not sure what this meant, but spoke to a colleague who said that the Conservatives want to give parents the choice of where to send their child to school. Many parents currently do not feel that they have a choice other than to send their disabled child to special school, as they feel that mainstream schools cannot meet their child's needs. Increasing segregated provision will only take away more resources from mainstream schools, so this really does not improve parental choice at all. I have asked David how the Conservatives plan to fund more special schools and also support inclusion at the same time, but as of yet I have not had a reply. It simply is not possible! The only way to create a truly inclusive education system is to put all the resources into mainstream schools, and give every child in this country an excellent education.

I won't go on a rant about inclusion, but most people now see that it is harmful to segregate people because of race, religion, gender, sexuality etc, but segregating people because of disability does not cause the outrage that it should!"

Anyone have anything to add /advice?

[2shoes]

sorry the thread title just caught my eye, I am not up on politics.
but inclusion at all costs is wrong.
it should all be down to what suits the child, not as some kind of grand plan.
it is a difficult subject to discuss asyou could have 2 people who dc's both have the same disability but feel totally different about it.
to me inclusion = exclusion.
it isn't segregation, just meeting the needs of the child.

[scaryteacher]

Where possible, children should be in mainstream, but there are sadly cases where mainstream does not work for them, or the rest of the students.

It is not segregating because of disability, but because of the needs of the child. I could not teach a blind child for example, as I do not read braille, or have the resources to convert each lesson into braille.

You also have to think of the needs not just of the physically disabled, but those who are mentally disabled as well - they cannot keep up in a main stream setting, so will end up in the SN unit, and be segregated to a certain extent anyway. Some schools have dedicated units where these students will go for lessons and care, but they will be part of a mainstream tutor group. I have seen this work very well in Cornwall for example.

Those with EBDs sometimes are in special schools like Prospect in Hampshire or Chelfham in Devon. At those schools, teachers are specifically trained to deal with the needs of the boys, and have great success with them; but this would not be achievable in mainstream.

100% inclusion does NOT work. Some children are so damaged by adults that they need to be taught by people trained to deal with the kind of abuse they have suffered and who can moderate the child's behaviour and reintegrate them into the classroom. That may happen in a school if that is what is meant by mainstream, but certain children because of their horrific experiences at the hands of their adults need to be out of the mainstream classroom so they can get the help they need so badly. That is imo and ime by the way.

[Clarissimo]

Inclusion is a babrbed gift.

Many, probably most kids with SN thrive in MS with the right support (that's a prime caveat: many children never see anything like that). however there are some who will never cope with an inclusion environment and it is right that they shlould not be forced into MS.

Autistic often but certainly not always fall into that and Retts isn;t autism but oioften is associated with it (usually IIRC).

There are also degrees of inclusion: ds3, and hopefully ds1 at comp level, attends a unit which is within a MS school but is separate and the children receive 1-1 to access MS when appropriate. DS3's is an all- SN unit; I hope ds1 will get a place in one for AS.

The keys are the actual child and the resources in place. If a child with a sensory or asd type disorder collapses to the ground covering tehir ears every time a child laughs becuase they can't handle thenoise, or switches off becuase of the sheer bustle of a normal classroom (DS3 was the latter ) tehn an MS calss will only be damaging in the long term. Likewise a child such as my ds1 who responds to noise etc as a perceived threat and lashes out. Why should he ahve to suffer the consequences of that, or the others in his environment be aplced at risk?

OTOH mys chool was one of the earliest ones to rpactice inclusion adn I feel I benefitted hugely from a very happy young man being included in my class. he had CP at a similar level to Riven's DD and a 1-1. Obviosuly I cannot entirely trust my perception of the situation as I was but ten, however it seemed to work: most kids, regardless of ability, thrive on the company of their peers.

The other aspect is provision; well resourced inclusion is one thing,, many LEA's have polciies such as no more than 16 hours a week in MS with a 1-1: it ws such a policy that IMO harmed my ds3 (here as in many palces you have to fail in MS to get into a SNU provision).

So what it coems down to is there HAS to be a mix of provisions. It's all very well saying we need all children with SN to attend MS for erquality but that wpuld mean sacrificing some children to the lions- bullying, non differentiated expert teaching, sensory overlaod, access issues etc...

My speciality is Autism so I naturally focus on that but I believe specialist autistic units are wonderful provisions, as are general SN placements. And as is inclusion. WHEN used properly and with regard to child before budget.

Now, I would love to see far more good quality provision of the type ds3 attends, where MS children and SNU chidlren receive apporpriate schooling but get chances to mingle. Even then soem very severely affected children are not able for that and that has to be respected. Equality is a great thing but should not be put above the needs of the actual child- eqiality of life quality is as important as eqiuality of anything else.

[Clarissimo]

Sorry autistic children

ahve small toddler raiding fruit cupboard as I type LOL

[madwomanintheattic]

your friend is advocating that all funding should be put into mainstream to support inclusion?

definitely not. sorry. (dd2 has cerebral palsy and is happily thriving in mainstream, but having run an organisation that offers out of school activities for children unable to take part in mainstream settings, her premise is completely flawed.)

inclusion at all costs horrifies me. and i am pro-inclusion where it is in the best needs of the child.

presumably that's why Dave is so torn. to provide funding to meet the needs of every single disabled child in this country (not just education, but wrt health and social opprtunity) is a big ask. he'll want to do, no doubt, but to work out how on earth to big up the existing budget to cope with the additional costs isn't going to be a matter of hitting 'reply' on his e-mail. i'm not surprised she hasn't had a response tbh.

i don't know any girls with retts in ms, tbh. i know a couple in sn who are thriving and their parents are very happy. it sounds as though ms is the best place for her dd, but it wouldn't be for the children i know.

that said, a friend of mine is a 1-1 in ms for a little boy who is blind. she had to learn braille for the job, and it seems to be working out fine.

flexibility is the key, but it's darned expensive.

[DelsParadiseWife]

This is a bit of a difficult issue. Mainstream schools are largely unsuitable for children with disabilities. They can sometimes handle a small minority with parents who have fought for them to be well supported but in general this really does not happen and the result is a disrupted education for that child and their peers.

Are special schools the answer? I don't believe so, but possibly better than the current alternative.

They whole system needs an overhaul. We need schools that have no exclusion policy because they don't need to have them. We need the space, the training, the facilities and the timetable to come together to provide a flexible education that meets the needs of all children, included disaffected, those who are not academic but able to learn skills in other ways, teenage mothers and well everyone really.

We need a system where children learn to take responsibility for their own learning, where teachers are facilitators rather than knowledge imparters, where children can take exams when they have acquired the relevant knowledge, not within a set time-limit. We need mixed ability, mixed age workine spaces with peer teaching and learning.

We need an education system where children who's families it suits can attend part-time with part-time Home education, where parents are involved, and fluid in and out of school contributing to the resources available to the school with their knowledge ot the world i.e. opportunities for parents to share their knowledge and be linked up with students with and interest in the relevant fields.

THIS is inclusive!

[Clarissimo]

A colleague of mine at Uni works with people with retts; the variation is far wider than people reallise.

Look at it this way:

if every day at school there were four children in the class with sn. One sits at the back rocking, hummming, occasionally having screaming fits under a table and whilst no actual danger to your child is clearly unhappy and makes no progress.

One interprets every confrontation as a threat and alshes out, hitting your child and making tehm scared to go to school. He has no impulse control and cannot prevent himself hitting, kicking or stealing. He is clearly very intelligent but functions way below that level as a noisy room is simply a source of stress for him.

One has severe SN but is coping well adn Mum is extremly pleased with his progress. He gets enough support, has the equipment he needs and is happy in his palcement. he ahs manay friends and is a compewlte part of the school day.

One has lower level SN but gets by, he could do with much more input but copes. He wasn't exp[ected to do well last eyar but in the last 12 months he ahs come along and his coordination has improved enough for him to write at long last. he is happy, popular and wishes to stay with his mates.

Those are the kids I know (3 are mine in fact) with SN in our school and I think it is evident there is no one system that can cater for all those needs. Luckily the top child (DS3) finally got a placement elsewhrere, ds1 we are still battling over using mainly health and safety as a level now. the toehr two ahve stayed put adn are thriving although Mum of severe child is oftena sked to consdier SNU adn she refuses, peetyy much going to show IMO that there is no assessment other than the childs well ebing that matters or works, and no one way for all. I would figbht to my last penny to prevent ds3 ever going into a MS unit again.

[madwomanintheattic]

lol del, quite. i was limiting my response to children with disabilities, but it's a small part of education as an entity.

[DelsParadiseWife]

Yes I know, but I think if you look at the whole picture you can see the possibilities in a positive light.

Inclusion should be positive, not the current imposition of children with difficulties onto teachers and schools that haven't got a clue what to do with them but daren't risk an accusation of disability discrimiation. It makes them defensive. It makes things worse.

Inclusion means 'everyone' doesn't it? And mainstream schools CAN meet all of those needs described by Clarissimo, they just currently don't.

Training and technology and some breaking of moulds should do it!

[Clarissimo]

You see when people talk about kids who take responsibility for their own education / make decision about their own education then yes, they should be at elast enouraged to seriously consider mainstream adn probably gently shoved that way.

However, many disabled children will never be able to take that role on board. DS3 can't tell me what he ahd for lunch, let alone decide his own educational philosophy! And tehn tehre are of course the children who do rpesnt a safety risk through no fault of their own.

There have to be safe palces for them and tehre are already nowhere near enough aplces for those who want them. having to fight for ds1 to get a specilaist aplcemnt is basically me fighting for ds1 to receive an education, a battle NT kids won back in the late 19th C.

[Clarissimo]

but Del how can a MS school meet teh needs of a child such as DS3 who will melt down and shut off if there are more than ten otehr kids in his class?

Seriosuly? Can't see it myself.

And ds3 is relatively minor; I know many children far more severe (I am both a parent and studying ASd at MA level) and simply could not cope. A 1-1 wouldn't cut it, the only thing works for many children is tiny classes, segragated break areas and meal areas and a constant routine without the sort of cahnges that alrge scale teaching brings.

[madwomanintheattic]

but i like the look of your model for those who are able to function in a ms environment del - it makes a lot of sense. there just will be children who can't cope within those (minimal) parameters and need a more specialised environment.

but i do like that vision of 'education' as a whole.

[DelsParadiseWife]

But you see Clarissimo The 'purpose-built' MS school will have low-stimulus classrooms with higher staff-child ratio, and opportunities for direction and time out as well as opportunities for supported integration.

Teaching won't ever been large-scale mass-market conveyor-belt style, but according to each and every child's need and pace.

Equality does not mean treating everyone the same!

[DelsParadiseWife]

Sorry, I meant some classrooms that are low stimulus and hight staff-pupil ration, - not all of them - obviously.

[Clarissimo]

Yeah but that ain't gonna happen is it?
I mean our school was built in 17447, all it has is a load of draghts and corridors so narrow a wheelchair can't fit. Oh and a preservation order tos top anyone adjusting it. And as we are surrounded by greenbelt (Oh OK, golf coursdes ) then nowt is ever going to change tehre.

Adn at a lot of otehr similar palces.

Which is why the purpose build specilaist MS school is a nice dream but until hell freezes over, no one is ever getting my boy back in there again.

Oh and you would have to sdack half the teachers too- friends child will only drink from a fruitshoot bottle (watter fine if it is in that bottle), has a DX of asd, school have been binning it becuase its in a squash bottle, he ahs epilep[sy so may be linked to his increased fits as he is dehydrated.... same battle we ahd with ds3 nigh on (he wouldnt drink water and teacher was binning the clear flavoured drink the Head approved on principle). My faith in MS is hot to pieces.

[Clarissimo]

1747 sorry

anything but futuristic!

[silverfrog]

I'm with Clarissimo here.

dd1 woudn't cope in MS regardless of what help you gave her.

the only way she'd cope would be to be segregated, and then that's not inclusion, is it?

dd1 is currently at a SN school, and we're heading for an Educational tribunal in July to keep her there.

we moved across the country 18 months ago to keep her out of mainstream, and will be moving again next month now we have found the school she needs.

She is at a tiny school now, and has a full time 1-1 (all the children there do)

dd1 spends half her time in a classroom on her own with 1-1 (all the children have their own classrooms) and the other half being in a class of up to 3 children (each 1-1 there as well, so children always fully supported)

dd1 is ASD, and fairly severe, but not as severe as the above sounds.

BUT, this is the only way she can relax enough to be able to learn. if she is not in this kind of environment, she clams up, shuts down, and disengages entirely. she spent the whole of last year in a SN school, with a class size of 10 (with 3 teachers). by the end of the year she had not progressed one jot (school were not even aware of her abiliites, tbh)

in one term at her new school, dd1 has learnt to:

dress/undress
wash up (water phobic) and set the table
make her lunch

and that's just the vocational stuff (I sya just - the dressing thing is a real boost for me )

educationally, she has:

learnt to count with reference
learnt the alphabet/phonics, and is beginnign to read
is consistently meeting all P scale targets, and is actually working at NC level 1 in some areas (am at this. dd1 is 5, she is in Yr 1. she is actually holding her own in some areas )

but none of this was possible in MS, or even in a SNU attached to MS, it is only by tailorinng he reducation so very exactly to her needs that this has come about.

[Clarissimo]

DS3 entered SNu a year ago next wek.

Since then he ahs:

learned to read and write, writng is very basic still but reading is good enough to read for example the newspaper on club penguin (you know how it is..... he's obsessed with club penguin so reads it, whereas a book is a no no)

His speech ahs come on hugely and he has mastered 3 extra sounds

He won an all- school comp to make an easter card today (admittedly at home with me and I sued to teach crafts in kids clubs, but for teh first tiome ever he sat down a did it (porato printing and gluind mainly))

His attention span has doubled

every day when I walk through teh MS gates with him though to colect the boys he regresses back to where he was a year ago, flapping all teh time, bolting etc.

[lifeissweet]

My DS does not have the major barriers to being in a ms school that some of your dc have. He is profoundly deaf and, although I know a lot of people send their deaf children to mainstream school successfully, I did not hesitate to send him to a school for the deaf. For me, it is largely a matter of economics. If he was sent to a MS school, the school would get the allowance laid down in his statement of SN. This would go into the school budget and may, or may not, be spent directly on what my DS needs (it is not ring-fenced and can be spent on any number of things - just as long as the child gets the provision laid down in the statement). This versus 50 children in a school where ALL of the staff are trained and ALL can sign, where many of the staff are excellent deaf role models themselves and where EVERY part of the school is acoustically suitable and set up for the specific needs of deaf children I know where I believe my child would be best educated.

The school is wonderful and has close links with nearby ms schools. He is not 'segregated' and he has many hearing friends. I just believe sincerely that he is receiving a better education in a special school than he would in a ms environment.

I have, however, been quite strongly criticised for this decision by other parents of deaf children. It's a matter of personal choice.

[lifeissweet]

sorry - that wasn't remotely related to the OP really, but I think I am saying that I can see the difficulty in having a party policy on this given the situation - and I believe that for inclusion to truly work then education needs overhauling as a whole. Teachers are constantly urged these days to personalise learning, but while class sizes and paperwork demands are as they are, this is simply not feasible - and it should be for ALL children regardless of SN or not.

[Clarissimo]

It is indeed lifeis.

I am firm suppoter of my friend's battle to include her child, and of my own for ds3 to be in specialist palcemernt.

Choice is what matters.

[silverfrog]

completely agree.

choice is exactly what is needed, not pushing "inclusion for all"

it is every child's (parent's) right to have a MS place, if that is suitable.

it should equally be every child's right to have a SN place, if that is what is needed.

[Clarissimo]

BTW OP- hopemyour friend doesn't mind you osting sections of her email on MN!

opting to send a child not coping in MS to SNU isn't segragation: it is liberation. Segregation is enforced separation, a child can be more seaprate from his peers when badly included in MS than in any SNU.

[coppertop]

My two with ASD are doing well in their m/s school but IMHO it would be madness to assume that this would work for all children with SN. I believe parents should be able to choose which environment best suits their child.