Well done George Osborne - stonking budget

[claig]

Tax free Allowance rising to £11000
40% tax threshold rising to £43000
Corporation Tax falling to 19% and then 18%
National Living Wage will reach £9 by 2020, will start at £7.20

If they carry on like this, Labour are finished and poor old UKIP and Farage won't stand a chance of getting a look in. But credit where credit is due - well done Osborne!

[ssd]

now, if only I had this foresight in predicting the lottery numbers......

[Isitmebut]

ssd ... you have just used my qualified facts to accuse me of "working for Tory HQ" - another one of my listed pathetic deflections listed on the other page.

Priceless, keep them coming.

Gets some balance to those red rose tinted glasses with some facts, rather keep bleating about some class war when correcting economic incompetence albeit 1979 or 2010, it didn't work in May, it won't work in 2020.

[ssd]

I'll let you keep them coming isitme, your qualified facts make really interesting, non biased reading.

[ConfusedintheNorth]

ssd... oh you'd be fine if you could do that, a lottery win would just about put you in the bracket of people the Tory's are actually interested in. :D

[ConfusedintheNorth]

"qualified facts" Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Isitmebut]

ConfusedintheNorth ..... Y-A-W-N

Yeah, with their 2000 diversity immigration policies, pee poor home building through the boom, manufacturing jobs crashing before the financial crash started, rising taxes, inequality rising, PPI borrowing, other borrowing and general economic incompetence - Labour were REALLY interested in 'the lot' of the indigenous poor/workers.

You can all get back to the rose tinted bleating, Isit is leaving the building...for lunch and chores.

[ssd]

yes, confused, then I could come on here and slate people who don't have millions in the bank like me

or I could try to brow beat others who I deem so thick they can't understand that I'm RIGHT about everything

[ConfusedintheNorth]

Yeah I didn't ask you about he history of Labour policies... I asked you about the current Tory ones... are you sure you're not a Tory MP, you're really good at completely avoiding the point and blaming everything on someone else.

[ConfusedintheNorth]

Yeah, ssd... just continually repeat nonsense instead of looking at the actual point being raise until people get so sick of you they give up on you actually having a well form opinion on anything.

[ssd]

oh don't encourage her/him, confused, they may come back...

[Isitmebut]

"are you sure you're not a Tory MP"

Yup sure, but YET ANOTHER deflection/insult to add to my earlier list, even if close to "you work at Tory HQ"

I answered all your apparently timeless ideologically incorrect/motivated questions/accusations with facts; this budget (with previous ones) are designed to correct 13-years of Labour imbalances, small business on balance are much better off under the Conservatives, pensions were pissed on by Brown/Labour, the rich are paying more tax under the Conservatives - and those who reach the 40% tax rate are not rich, and suffered from Fiscal Drag under Brown/Labour when inflation was much higher.

Tah dah

(Sorry had to come back to pick up my blue tinted sunglasses) lol.

[ssd]

bloody hell, thought you were on your lunch?

[ConfusedintheNorth]

"I answered all your apparently timeless ideologically incorrect/motivated questions/accusations with facts" - Nope you answered them with other peoples opinions.

"small business on balance are much better off under the Conservatives" - No they aren't, I run one, we're f*cked!

"the rich are paying more tax under the Conservatives" - as a generalization everyone is paying more, however those who are better off have not been hit anywhere near as hard as low-waged workers.

I notice the one piece of evidence (and I won't go into the difference between evidence and facts because I would really be wasting my time with you) you haven't quoted is the independent report done by the ifs, which kind of says it all.

[TheSultanofPing]

Well I see they've got their 10% pay rise.

[ssd]

That'll be Labours fault.

[GraysAnalogy]

The living wage is great for some. Not so for those who have studied for years, done lots of training, worked their way up, to achieve a wage and now will be earning little more than this living wage because of cuts and freezes.

[minkGrundy]

isitme you are wrongly supposing I supported the Labour government.

We get it you don't like Gordon Brown. Well it's quite simple- don't vote for him.

They we have got that sorted. Now back to the present day.

Woukd you be happy to pay an extra £200 or 10% of you after tax income whichever is higher, per month in tax to help get the country out of the enormous mess you keep telling us it is in? Direct question. If not, why not? (Not just you personally you and everyone else on a roughly similar wage band).

[Alyosha]

Oh dear! all very heated in here.

Isitme -

What makes something sustainable? As far as I can see it is the confidence of the markets that you can make your debt repayments. Confidence that the UK could make its debt repayments was probably never in doubt with all major political parties lining up to prioritise paying off the debt first and everything else second.

You mention that France had lower debt than the UK & lower welfare spending. France also has a lot more public sector non job workers (www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-government-sector-employment-2011-11?IR=T) & a very very protectionist Labour market.

If you remember it was the conservatives that were against a national ID card scheme which would have made it much harder for illegal immigrants to get work and drive down wages.

You also mentioned migration in the context of welfare. There is always a lot of navel gazing in the conservative press about lazy Brits. The reality is that British people born in Britain have additional expenses that 18-34 yo immigrants do not have. I.e. a family, and therefore need more money to do equivalent jobs. Immigration depressed wages substantially which is something that should have been addressed to encourage people into work, but a free labour market with low wages has been extremely beneficial to businesses - they are always going to moan about mean governments tying them up with regulations to stop their workers dying/polluting the world.

You also mention high tech engineering firms. I'm not sure why universities & schools should be responsible for training people for extremely specific roles which are subject to the vagaries of the international economic situation. Perhaps I've missed something... Again if the UK & US are innovation power houses, but score lowly on international tests, perhaps the utility of international comparative education tests doesn't tell us anything of any use re: schooling & skills?

High tech manufacturing and indeed all manufacturing comes nowhere near replacing the work lost through steel working/coal mining etc. They are fudnamentally low intensity labour businesses - which is why the service sector has picked up a lot of jobs.

Nothing bar government stimulus/protectionism can bring mass manufacturing back to high wage countries. Where are these private sector jobs going to spring from? (I am not advocating for protectionist labour or trade policies, just pointing out that a shift towards low paid service sector jobs is difficult to stop in a globalised economy - people should get a minimum income IMO)

You also mention low corporation taxes in Ireland attracting businesses...how is that sustainable?? Low corporation tax is a genuine race to the bottom - the UK has an advantage over Ireland in terms of a larger workforce & being an international financial centre. That demands a corporation tax premium.

[Isitmebut]

minkGrundy ... re your "Woukd you be happy to pay an extra £200 or 10% of you after tax income whichever is higher, per month in tax to help get the country out of the enormous mess you keep telling us it is in? Direct question. If not, why not?"

Judging by my experience on this board, socialist losing their argument like to get personal and or twist words rather than face facts, but I will offer ammo for those who roll that way;

Without going into my personal situation as that is no ones business, over my 60-year life I had a poxy Comprehensive School education, have earned relatively large salaries and lived in big homes and also had feck all to a jam tart and lived in Council homes.

FYI I do not hate Gordon Brown, but 1997 was the best decade in probably 100-years to mould UK society for the better, Labour had a 130 to 160 plus majority to do it and they totally screwed up on nearly everything - so no hate, just massive anger at such a wasted opportunity that both took us in the wrong direction, and left massive social problems with huge debts to sort it.

Having lived in Council Homes NO ONE can tell me every recipient of Welfare/Benefits etc etc etc has valid claims or there is no abuse, or even if they fecked around at school like me, they did there best afterwards to pull themselves up by their boot straps to provide for them and theirs - and unfortunately the policies of the 2000s gave the wrong signal to many.

So having paid huge amounts of tax over my life, I've no problem paying tax, and although I earn relatively little at the moment, I would find it unfair to pay over half my salary to the State, as the main problems we have now is that the State squandered the peoples taxes - and as most political parties and their supporters still don't 'get it', it is likely to happen again financial crisis or not - hence I fully support getting our National debt down asap.

As Labour's Liz K says, it is not clever to pay £60, £70 bil a year interest to government bond investors by 2020 on our national debt, which comes out of the governments annual spending budget, and that is with interest rates at 300-years lows - so if interest rates spiked up anywhere near the last 30-year average, we would be in serious trouble.

The problem is too many people hide behind failed ideologies and old class soundbites, when they should look at what political parties inherited, what their policies did for the country, and what they left at the end of their term

[minkGrundy]

The problem is too many people hide behind failed ideologies and old class soundbites, when they should look at what political parties inherited, what their policies did for the country, and what they left at the end of their term

Why? You cannot change the past.

So the debt must be paid off you fully support that but not by taxes because the state will squander them. If not by taxation then how. You canna have it all ways.

You cannot punish everyone on benefits because a few cheat. Some of the people on benefits may also have paid 'huge amounts of tax'.

And if only council housing was still an option.

I don't think that you fully appreciate what TC contribute to employment. They allow people to work who otherwise would not be able to. They may not earn much at the time they get TC but by remaining part of the workforce they maintain their employability, improve their health, and increase their future earning potential. And tgey pay NI.
TC was/is a good policy. It might need tinkering with but it doesn't need butchering. E.g. increasing the taper might be fair (removes more from the already higher paid claimants) but not if you simultaneously lower the threshold (removes more from the lowest paid claimants). And increasing the personal allowance is a relatively costly measure as it spreads a miniscule benefit over a very high proportion of the workforce, including the very high earners, instead of targeting it at those to whom it would make a real difference- so high cost, low effect. TC replaced the child tax allowance, so effectively removing a blanket subsidy (costly) and replacing it with a targeted subsidy (more cost effective).

This has got nothing to do with ideology (unlike Tory cuts which are ideology veiled as necessity) and everything to do with common sense and simple economics.

If there were enough money to give one person who was hungry a decent meal that woupd allow them to go out to work or to give a large number of well fed, several positively stuffed people and the hungry person a penny chew each it makes more sense to do the former than the latter even if to some bairny people the latter might seem fairer.

[Isitmebut]

minkGundy .... you mainly lost me with "Why? You cannot change the past."

As that assumes whether in 1979 or 2010, that the UK economy wasn't pan-holing and urgently needing restructuring, which for getting the UKs books in order when 'money tree' socialism was clueless as only know how to spend money we have not got, the left have branded 'nasty Tory ideology'.

The Conservative core ideology and therefore their policies are 'joined up';

Keep the State and costs as big as it needs to be, improve education to facilitate all the needs of the economy, create conditions for a sustainable Private Sector growth/jobs, let citizens keep as much of their own earnings as possible, get those in work that can work - which should mean less jobs subbed out to the rest of the world = less pressure on the demand for homes, and leave more money for those that truly need help short or long term - whilst Labour's 13-year record, was pretty much the opposite of that.

The left assumes that ALL their 'hungry' citizens have NOTHING anyone else has e.g. technology, the parent don't drink, or smoke, or have Sky at £50 odd squid a month - which is clearly BOLLOCKS.

So I reiterate my last point further above, as if you don't get the big picture right, it is the poor that suffer most in an economic slump, ask Greece;

"when they should look at what political parties inherited, what their policies did for the country, and what they left at the end of their term."

[ssd]

excellent post minkGrundy

[tabulahrasa]

"I don't think that you fully appreciate what TC contribute to employment. They allow people to work who otherwise would not be able to. They may not earn much at the time they get TC but by remaining part of the workforce they maintain their employability, improve their health, and increase their future earning potential. And tgey pay NI."

Not to mention that it's good for the economy as well, as low earners spend their income.

[DoctorTwo]

As that assumes whether in 1979 or 2010, that the UK economy wasn't pan-holing and urgently needing restructuring,

In 2010 the Gidiot inherited an economy that grew at 1.4% in the first quarter of the year and promptly trashed it with his useless austerity. It only started growing years later after he reversed his stupid experiment. Now he's turned back to it and will trash it all again.

[minkGrundy]

Back to Greece again. We are not Greece. Completely failed to address the issue that in a time of so called austerity the Tories are yet again making costly (to the exchequer) income tax cuts that benefit the recipients very little (£80 per year- whoopdedoo) whilst simulataneously putting up all kinds of other taxes.