Why is it only the right that gets angry about how state schools fail the poor?

[longfingernails]

A truly fantastic article.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/06/christine-blower-the-nut-and-the-bigotry-of-low-expectation/

My favourite snippet:
This is what separates British left and right now. The left, in their post-Blair phase, is no longer very worked up about the poor doing badly at school. (?It may matter or it may not,? Blower said about poor children not going to top universities). The standard left response is to talk philosophically about inequality in society, as if this has the slightest bearing on whether the concept of a sink school ought to be tolerated in this day and age.

By contrast, the right are hopping mad about educational inequality. When the subject is raised in front of Michael Gove, it?s like flicking a switch. He blows his top. When I last interviewed him and raised the subject about whether it poor kids should be expected to do as well as rich, he replied in a crescendo of anger.

[beatback]

Mr Judgey pants. And the majority of state educated kids who come though and get to the top come from selective schools. ANSWERS ON A POSTCARD. Comprehensives dont get many kids in to the elite "EVEN AMY CHILDS AND JODIE MARSH WENT TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS".

[Amazinggg]

Moondog - why do you think poor people haven't sent their children to those free schools? Is it because they have been intentionally excluded in some way - catchment area, or a lack of information available? Do you think it's ok?

My problem in general with the right's attitude to the poor is that they want the poor to help themselves, then if they don't, the right can shrug and say 'well, we tried' and go back to speaking the language of middle classes who know how to research complicated schools admissions procedures.

And longfingernails - are you a teacher? Because to pontificate at such length about what should be taught, how and why, I assume you are a trained and experienced teacher? I would not speak with authority on healthcare, defence or banking crises unless, y'know, I was a specialist. But education - teachers are seen as the lowest of the low by the right. I really don't understand why. Unions - all they are is a great big crowd of trained teachers who want to be allowed to do their job without countless twiddling from above. That music homework made me laugh aloud - I bet you 20p that music teacher has been told to produce evidence that the children have progressed and learned things.. that they can self evaluate and they need the lesson objectives recorded... he didn't want to waste time doing that in the lesson and has probably been told he has to set homework weekly and log it... what kind of homework would you like a music teacher to set? Think about it. This is the last thing this teacher wants to do and he has to. He hates it, it's the most soul destroying part of his job, the endless tick boxes, the endless showing he's doing his job, the endless measuring that means no growth is ever actually made.

[Amazinggg]

Moondog - who do you think is best placed to make the necessary changes? Genuine question. I think it's teachers.

[Arisbottle]

I am not saying there is a chosen demographic, however IF Gove has said that free schools will raise standards for children in deprived areas or from disadvantaged backgrounds and those children do not attend , there is a problem.

My children, with one exception, attend the local state school. The intake for that school is the local community, if a section of that community chooses not to attend surely we would have to ask why. Or of we know that our local area has 25% of children on FSM and yet we only have 6% of children in receipt of free school meals we would ask ourselves why that was the case.

[Arisbottle]

I agree about competing exam boards.

[claig]

Amazingg some good points.

But

"I would not speak with authority on healthcare, defence or banking crises unless, y'know, I was a specialist."

It doesn't seem to stop the New Labour front bench talking about them!

[Arisbottle]

I am not quite sure why you are quoting Jodie Marsh and Amy Childs.

[claig]

It may be the case that parents prefer their local comp to a new untried, untested free school

[Amazinggg]

I think education needs to be depoliticised as far as possible. I don't know about healthcare, but it's probably the same. Layer upon layer of management between the people on the ground and politicians who latch on to the latest new idea or money saving plan - it's such a recipe for disaster, and both Labour and the coalition are guilty of over-meddling.

It is by far the worst thing in schools atm - either the management of a school is halfway up the govt's rear and shoving all the initiatives at teachers, giving reams of unnecessary and crippling paperwork and requirements, and making any member of staff who protests' life a misery - or you have a school where they try as hard as they can to filter out all the bullshit from ground level so teachers can get on with their jobs. I've taught in both types of school and know which is happier, with staff who feel empowered, strongly unionised and defensive of their autonomy. It seems opposite to rightwing thinking, that teachers are just mistrusted so much. Surely a light touch, hands off approach would be best? It's such a bloody circus - 4 years then the next lot will be in to 'innovate' and 'reform' leaving another generation of fresh young teachers scarred. A ridiculously high proportion of new teachers drop out within their first two years - almost all citing the paperwork. The kids are lovely, teaching is back seat to chasing your rear to fulfil the endless crap imposed, new curricula, new exams... God.

[Amazinggg]

That turned into a senseless rant, sorry

[beatback]

Aris. The point is that because jodie marsh and amy childs went to private schools they were able to mix with the right people and get their careers moving. Anyway Jodie Marsh was actually quite academic. The other point is that if both of them had gone to the school in educating essex they both would have got nowhere. Which just goes to show where you go to school ,who you know and who you mix with is the most determing factor on your future success.

[Arisbottle]

How do you know they would have got nowhere, I teach in a comprehensive/ secondary modern and send students off every year to top universities. I went to a school that would make most MNers blush but managed to get into a top university and have had two successful careers.

I am not saying that all state schools are great but to say that children are doomed if they go to state schools or non selective schools is daft.

I am not sure I want my daugter's to follow in the steps of either of those women tbh.

[MiniTheMinx]

I agree that politicians as individuals and as separate parties have short term priorities but I would like to go back to MrJP's point about the percentage of top jobs taken up by the privately educated. Firstly the political class is not the state, they are two distinctly different things with different functions. Those who are privately educated of a certain class have two dichotomous tendencies, on the one hand they do the bidding of the state on the other they have a desire to fill the pockets of their chums. Their chums in turn benefit hugely from the apparatus of the state in terms of it's institutions like law because the main function of the law is to protect their private property rights. However, in giving free reign to markets they undermine the states ability to protect their interests.

Those on left have a different attitude to the state but the same relation. They want a large state under their control and favour extending state control. They have no interest in allowing the state to function in the interests of those privately educated bods. But equally have no desire to educate and empower the working class, for without it their work is over.

The most common way of measuring the effectiveness of state education is to compare it with private. Without one the other wouldn't exists because no comparison could be made.

Knowing that the class interests of privately educated people is to keep a two tier education system which privileges them is no short term goal. If they succumb to filling the pockets of their chums, if the state system is auctioned off, sold piecemeal to private interests, be aware that these private interests are the very same people, with the same long term goals as the right wing political establishment.

I have no problem with choice when it isn't subterfuge for shoring class interests.

[beatback]

Aris. I know you would not want to follow in their steps, but you would think that most kids with poor academic qualifactions would take them as inspriations and its the same with other celebs who appear normal like lily allen went to public schools. The whole system is totally screwed against anyone from a inner city comp the ones who do get though seem to come from Grammar Schools.

[Arisbottle]

I have never heard a child quote either of those two as inspirational. Yec I have heard actresses, singers etc, never those two.

With one exception my children are not at a grammar, they are not screwed . They are aiming for careers like law, medicine , politics etc . My children are not in inner city schools but could very easily have been as we lived in London until relatively recently.

[moondog]

'Moondog - who do you think is best placed to make the necessary changes? Genuine question. I think it's teachers.'

I feel sorry for teachers. They are hassled (as are all public sector workers) to produce 'evidence' (of the Emporer's new clothes ilk) to cover their arse and those of their managers. Health is exactly the same.
It is now better than Soviet era bollocks about wheat harvest in Uzbekistan and tractor production in the Urals.

I also think most teachers are poorly trained and educated, especially those who work with children who are struggling academically (my area). I know enough about evidence based practice and effecting really change to know these teachers haven't been taught this stuff. My conspiracy theorist alter ego tells me this is so the client state can be extended and perpetuated. The Special Educational Needs industry is a terrifyingly parasitic machine that bays for blood and produces little. Constantly shrieking for more and more people to join its army of utterly ineffectual foot soldiers who go through their careers congratulating
themselves on the pivotal role they assume they play in the wellbeing of the nation.
So, to answer your question, politicians use education as a political football, teachers are largely clueless or led by stupid careerists like Christine Blower. Who does that leave? Parents.
Who sets up free schools? Parents.
Quite a few MNers are involved in this movement (not me sadly, although open to offers)

[moondog]

Stephen Twigg was ranting about Gove recently, asking what he knew about education (a damn site more than Blower it would seem who admitted that she had no understanding of phonics despite arguing against its use, despite all the evidence to the contrary) and what right he had to mess with it.

Doesn't stop Twigg though does it?

[beatback]

That is very unfair on Amy childs?. She is always well turned out polite on time disciplined and works dammed hard and should be a inspriation for non academic girls, that if you work hard enough at something they can achieve. Sadly i believe that amy"s comfortable upbringing had a great deal to do with her success. The reason i said Jodie Marsh is because people think very negative things about her not her business acumem that has made her wealthy.

[Arisbottle]

I don't need pity , I am not clueless or poorly educated. I work in a comprehensive/secondary modern that you are desperate to escape and am surrounded by highly qualified and well educated professionals .

[moondog]

Who on earth is Amy Childs?

[Arisbottle]

I think she is from "The Only Way is Essex"

[MrJudgeyPants]

Mini I have no problem with choice when it isn't subterfuge for shoring class interests.

Mini, I understand the point you are trying to make here. I've often thought that if the left ever did manage to elevate the proletariat (to use old fashioned language) for a future of true social justice in all walks of life, they would destroy their own raison d'etre. Conversely, if an elite opened the doors to all and sundry it wouldn't be an elite for very long.

Frankly, as someone on the right (who is also pretty far removed from any elite I can assure you), I couldn't give a stuff about the special interest groups on either end of the spectrum - I just want the best for my child and for as many others like her as possible. To that end, I would love for her to have a private education but, like the 93% majority, I cannot afford it.

To go back to your point that privatising education would put education in the hands of the elite and that, in the long term, they have an interest in keeping our kids down, I have to say that I disagree with you. The object of any business is to make money for its shareholders and to achieve this, they have to have customers. Provided that competition is built in to any mass sell off of our schools (and that, I concede, is by no means guaranteed - the states record on privatisation is woeful) the long term goal of any business is attract more customers by being better than the competition. How a school becomes 'better' than the competition is a question that private schools know the answer to yet, after 140 years of state education in this country, the state seems no clearer on.

[moondog]

Excellent points JP.

[MrJudgeyPants]

Amazinggg who do you think is best placed to make the necessary changes? Genuine question. I think it's teachers.

Whilst I acknowledge that this wasn't a question aimed at me, I'd like to answer by saying that, as with any product or service, the customer should get what the customer wants. In this instance the customer is the pupil or their proxy - in this instance their parents.

Would you accept a supermarket telling you what food to eat, a coal miner telling you how to heat your house, or a journalist telling you what newspaper to read? Of course not. You might ask for their opinion but your instinct would be that there is a huge potential for producer interest to prejudice those opinions.

[noblegiraffe]

Aren't private schools usually academically selective?

I imagine small class sizes, plenty of money sloshing around and the ability to boot out troublemakers help too.

State schools don't have that.