Churchgoing Christians, please help

[mummytummy]

OK, I'm in a huge dilemma. I've been going to the same church for 5 years now, I go about twice a month to the family service. We are having major building work going on, and I have 2 DDs aged 1 and 3. I work on Saturdays, and with all the chaos in the house at the mo, since the building work started 7 weeks ago, I haven't been at all because we are trying to give the kids quality time on Sunday as its our only day together as a family, and they don't enjoy church, and Sunday school is shut during the hols. I went on Sunday evening, which takes place during my kids' bedtime, and my vicar had a go at me for not attending recently. His wife then told me that I shouldn't be putting my kids first. Tonight I went to a bible study group, and I have come out extremely angry. The basic gist of it was that so long as you attend church every Sunday and tithe (giving it all to the church), you will go to Heaven. They then went on to whine about people giving their old TVs to the church when they bought a new one, when they should be giving their new TV to the church. I came out horrified. I am now thinking of going to a different church, or giving up completely with the church and just study independently. This isn't representing my beliefs. It is coming to the wrong time of the month, and I have a terrible cold, so I may be hormonal, but I do just feel like flouncing off. Any advice?

[bebejam]

Tithing, or any amount given to God's work, doesn't necessarily need to be given to the church parish.

Often when people tithe, a percentage of that goes to their church but a lot goes to various other things like sponsoring kids through Worldvision, helping pay for a seminary student's expenses, giving money to a homeless shelter ect. ect.

I'd leave any church that really did say that access to heaven was tied to your giving or church attendance. Unfortunately, some vicars just don't have a good bedside manner... couple that with bad theology, and I take it as time to move on.

On the flip side, a church can and should be able to talk about money and finances without everyone getting offended. Most folks don't get offended when they are sitting watchting the tele and a slickly produced ad for Amnesty International is played... but then get their backs up if the church budget is mentioned from the pulpit. Churches should not bully people about their assests or giving... but neither should they be expected to walk on egg-shells when it comes to the topic of money and finances.

[KemalsStilletto]

They sound like they want eveything! My friends ex-church took 50% of his salary, which I found totally ridiculous, esp with all the money they take from offerings! At my church all they really ask for is offerings if you can afford anything, and I usually put in 20p, sometimes 40p if I switch rooms throughout the service, but to tell you to give them your new tv?!?! Are they crazy?!?!?.

I would perhaps study from home at the moment and set out finding a new church who is happy to take as much as you can afford and who has a regular nice and happy sunday school for the kids.

[nicmum2boys]

The christian fellowship sounds like a very good place to try MT.
that this vicar gave you counselling. I know as a vicar giving counselling is part of the job discription, but really he seems completely unable to put himself in someone elses shoes, completely flabbergasted!
I love the picture that Acts 2 paints for us as the early chuch, every church's role model, esp vv 44 to 46. Sounds like this vicar needs to read it!
Agree with mumbee, church is all about being there for each other, and supporting one another, if one of us is down, it's the responsibility of the rest of us to pick them up, and no one has the right to say to anyone that they are not contributing enough (particularly like Romans 12 picture of the church).
Good luck MT, will be praying, let us know how you get on.

[mumbee]

MT just read about your dilema. in John 14 v 6 jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life on one comes to the Father except through me." Knowing Jesus is the most important aspect of your relationship before GOD that is what will count at the end. The rest of it is for us to live in harmony with one another. Seek GOD and his will. Do not become to independant away from Christians you still need to be part of the Christian family.

(what does your Dh/p say about it depend on him to lead the family to the right place. Also if you are praticing a God centered marriage the vicar should be dealing with him as the head of the christain household.) suggestion from my DH

On a similar note i regularly have to miss church because on or other of my 2 Dc is poorly they've just had chicken pox missed 5 weeks, i got a home visit from my pastor and his wife to see if they could do anthing to help. That is what a pastor would do who really cares not critise.

So please find another church where you will get the support and love that a christian family will share willing and have no expectation other than to be lovea nda accepted back

[Ameriscot2005]

Good luck, MT

[mummytummy]

Thanks again everyone. Ameriscot, unfortunately he has done this before. When I had my 2nd DD by ceasarean, I went to church when she was 6 days old because I knew I wouldn't be able to find the time for the next couple of weeks. About 3 weeks later I bumped into him and another member of the congregation at the bank. I said to the lady he was with that I hadn't seen her in ages (she usually sits the other side of the church to me) and he snapped "maybe if you came to church once in a while you would have seen her". I find it particularly upsetting because he actually counselled me for PND after DD1, so I feel that he should be more aware of how tricky I do find juggling things. I think I am being called to another church. I haven't really settled that well in this church - its the first one I've ever been to, and I have stuck at it for 5 years. I have e-mailed the Christian Fellowship church and I'll give that one a shot. I used to go to one of their toddler groups and I know quite a few people from there. I think more children in the same age group as my two kids go there, so that could help them to enjoy it more too.

[Ameriscot2005]

Was the stuff at the bible study group said with any authority from the church? It's obviously not the Church of England stance on these issues.

Sometimes participants in study groups say the wrong things because they have not understood what it says in the bible about certain issues. Other people nod along because they are nice people and want to show that they value contributions from everyone. However, it is very appropriate to say if you don't agree with what someone has said and to ask for further clarification on what they mean.

Some people will drop into a conversation that they believe you need to tithe (give 10%) because that's what they do and are really just bragging. We are warned about these people in Matthew 6:1-4.

As for what the Vicar and his wife said, are you sure you heard correctly? Sometimes people say things in church and it is heard the wrong way. For example, one time when our vicar announced that we had a crèche for small children, someone got offended and felt that small children weren't welcome in the church - where what the vicar meant was that you may feel more comfortable and get more out of the service if you don't have to worry about keeping your children entertained/quiet etc.

Sometimes someone will say they've missed you when you haven't been to church for a while but it doesn't mean they are keeping tabs on you to measure how worthy you are. 'Not putting the children first' might just be a clumsy way of saying that you deserve some "me-time" to recharge your batteries.

[KiwiKate]

Hi Mummytummy. Sounds like something you need to pray about. Sometimes we need to stay in difficult situations to lead by example. And then of course, sometimes it is God's way of moving us out of our comfort zone and onto the next wonderful thing he has in store for us.

Having said that, your church should encourage and lift you up. This one sounds like it is draining you. Don't feel guilty if you do change churches - you need to do what God is telling you to do. Personally, I would not stay in a church where the vicar presumed to know more about my relationship with God than I did. I know what God tells me, the vicar does not. And if God is leading you to spend more time with your kids and less time in church, then it is wonderful that you are able to devote that time to them.

As for not putting your children first - what rubbish. Children are a gift from God! Even Jesus thought it important to spend time with children.

I know that churches need money to operate, but when churches say that tithing is a precondition to getting into heaven, that is simply not bible based and makes me very concerned about the rest of their teachings. Certainly the bible says you should tithe, but it does not say that if you don't tithe you won't go to heaven. You can't earn your way into heaven (by tithing or any other means) the only way you get there is by God's grace and through the sacrifice of Jesus. If you could tithe your way into heaven, you wouldn't need Jesus, would you?

There is nothing wrong with shopping around for a church that feeds you spiritually. When we left our old church (because we moved away from the area), we spent THREE YEARS church hopping! We'd go to a different church each time and nothing seemed quite "right" for us. And for months at a time, we did our own study and did not go. It was a very unsettling time for us, but we just felt that God would let us know where we were meant to be, when His timing was right. We are now very well settled in one of the first churches we attended. Of course no church is perfect (made up of imperfect people!) but you need to go where you feel God wants you. TBH at the time we needed the break from being committed to one place.

If you are going to do self study, take care not to become isolated. I watch the teachings on www.joycemeyer.org - she has her tv teachings online so you can watch any time you want. Try and keep up your bible study (or join another). Many bible studies don't care what church you go to.

As for loosing your job - again, it is something you need to pray about, but if God is leading you to a new church He certainly will not forget to provide for you financially (either by making sure you can keep your current job or move on to something better).

Sorry you are going through a tough time.

I'll keep you in my prayers.

God bless!

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Tortington]

i often find the most religeous people the least christian. remember you have your faith in god and christ and god is the only being who can judge you.

you absolutley must find a way to express your faith which makes you happy. But remember you have your faith regardless of how you express it. It just takes two people together - it doesnt need a priest or a church or any of the peripheries.

[Ameriscot2005]

Maybe it's 200k

[QueenOfQuotes]

actually you know - I think I may have got that figure wrong

[Ameriscot2005]

Ours is between £300k and £350k !

[QueenOfQuotes]

yes that's probably about right, but while the church will have to give money back to the Diocese - they also then get given money back again (mad but true).

The cost of running our church per year is about £20,000

And with Gift Aid churches can now get a substantial amount of money back from the Government.

but this STILL shouldn't mean that people should be given a set amount which they're expected to give.

[Ameriscot2005]

I can't remember the figures now for our church, but about 10 years ago when we first joined the Partnership scheme, the average for participating families was about £50 per month, which was then boosted by money back from Chancellor of the Exchequer.

[MarsLady]

the Bible talks about the widow's mite (or basically the few pennies that she has). When the rich man makes a big deal about the large amount of money that he puts in he gets no blessing for it. The amount is nothing to him. The widow puts in her mite and it is all that she has. She is the one who is praised in the parable.

MT I think that you should sleep on it. I also think that you should give serious consideration to leaving the church that you are currently with. Find one with a good sunday school if you can so that your kids can enjoy church. Remember though, when we find the perfect church we often spoil it. What looks good initially never completely comes up to our standards.

I liked and agreed with NM2B posts.

God knows your heart so don't worry what they told you. Your children are a blessing from God and He wants you to enjoy them.

[Ameriscot2005]

We don't have children's groups during the summer holidays. The children's leaders need to have a break too and it would be pretty difficult to run anything of quality with the pattern of holidays.

What we have instead are holiday services in the main family service spot (our other services run as normal). These services are each run by a home group and are about 45 minutes long instead of 90 minutes, with the adult talk is only 5 minutes long. My group was responsible for last week's service and I was the main speaker .

[QueenOfQuotes]

no it's not -

like I said the "average" offering per week in our church is between £5-10 - some give a LOT more than that, but to say that people should give that amount or they're not giving fairly isn't very fair!

[Ameriscot2005]

An average of £30 per family isn't a lot of money to run a church.

[Ameriscot2005]

You could always speak up for your beliefs at your study group - that's basically the point of these things. Did everyone else agree with what was said?

[QueenOfQuotes]

MGR - we have the biggest parish share amount in the whole of the Diocese (sp) after the Cathedral.......but people are still told to only give what they can realistically afford.

Seeing as though it's an Anglican church there's no reason why it HAS to have such a large income, of course the Diocese would like it's full quota of the parish share but they're not going to close it down if it's not payed!

And as for

"and he said he was going to have a go at her for recommending another church."

What utter garbage!!! Several regular members of our congregation attend other churches as well as our own - including the couple who run the Toddler Church on a Thursday afternoon!

[Ladymuck]

Ooops - just (cross-post as mine was so long) seen that it is anglican. Seems a bit more bizarre then?

[mummytummy]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to bed now to sleep on it. I have just sent an e-mail to Swanley Christian Fellowship to find out about their service times, I have nothing to lose by trying a couple of services, have I?

Night everyone.

[Ladymuck]

Sorry to hear that you are unhappy. I'm guessing that you go to a "non-established" church (no idea what the current technical terms are but house church rather than established church for eg).

I've seen this trend before, and it usually results from the leaders own insecurity. Without the (financial) backup of a denomination, the leaders feel very exposed, and through their own weakness may be unreasonably demanding on their congregation. It is easy for them to take their eyes off the big picture, and instead to over-emphasise the fact that they want the congregation to be "as committed" as they are. If there were loads of new people arriving at the church, and plenty of new tithes coming in, I suspect that you would not be hearing these messages!

Some of this comes from the time of year - people are on holiday, attendance and possibly giving is down, pastors get nervous that no-one will ever show up again.

Now this isn't to justify their behaviour, but do bear in mind that they are human, and have the same weaknesses as the rest of us.

In terms of flouncing, I guess you need to consider whether this church is where you are meant to be part of God's body. No church is perfect and sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and put up with it (I have to say that I can tell how the bank balance of our church is doing by the length of the premably to the offering each week!). Sometimes you just have to keep smiling and focus on loving the people. Churches are full of sinners, so there will be plenty of things to wind us up.

As a treasurer to one such church, there were rarely any families giving less than £30 per month. Generally members were expected to give 10% or more of their income.

[nicmum2boys]

Precisely Mummytummy, it's not about ticks in boxes. Your relationship with God is just that, your relationship with God. It is between the two of you, and no one else has the right to poke the finger (what is that quote about the speck in your neighbour's eye, look at the log in your own? reckon you should bring that up with you fellow churchgoers!)