Would a Christian send their sons to this school?

[Bonaventura]

Some might say this thread belongs in Chat, possibly as an "Am I being Unreasonable?" thread. But I'm starting it here, because, as a Catholic, I see this as a Christian question. It's certainly a moral question anyway.

My db and sil are moving to Zimbabwe next year with their family. A couple of weeks ago I realized the school they were intending to send my 2 dns to was one I had heard of before. I asked them if they were aware that corporal punishment is used there, and they said they were, but didn't think it was something they'd have to worry about because they assumed it was only used for serious misbehaviour, the kind dns would never be involved in. My information was different, though I didn't say so at the time, because I thought I ought to check up first. But they had not said anything to my mother, who had been a campaigner for STOPP (Society of Teachers Opposed to Corporal Punishment) back in the 1970s. I warned them that she'd be bound to find out eventually, and would go ballistic. So they did tell her shortly after that, and her reaction was what I expected. She was furious, and there was (and is) quite a lot of bad feeling about it. She obviously felt betrayed, because when were growing up corporal punishment was still legal in Britain, but our parents made sure we went to schools where it wasn't used.

My sympathies were with my mum, because I'm opposed to all forms of corporal punishment. But I didn't feel entitled to get up on my high horse about it, because it could be very hard to find a school in Zimbabwe that didn't use it. It put db and sil in a dilemma. I thought I'd look into it, and see if I could find out more about that school - a boys-only school I'll call "Prince". If I could satisfy myself that it was used infrequently enough that the dns were unlikely ever to suffer it, my mum might accept the idea of them going there. Or else, if I found the opposite, I'd have to inform db and sil of that fact.

The attitude my db is taking is quite casual (which is one thing that makes my mum angry), and I can see that both he and sil are quite attracted to Prince, because of its high standing and "traditional" values. Many of the better schools in Zimbabwe were established by the British in colonial times, and tend to follow some very old traditions that are no longer even permitted in schools here. I don't think they quite realize that a lot of those traditions are unhealthy and dangerous. Even if most boys survive them apparently unscathed, there are bound to be many who do not.

I already had one informant who had taught at Prince for a couple of years, and the impression I got from her was that corporal punishment was an everyday thing, and was not reserved for serious misbehaviour. But I decided to look for some back-up. I found this on a "school memories" site:

"I remember when I was in Prince in '98. Got into trouble because I didn't do my homework, the teacher was Mrs Saich, my maths teacher. She was the scariest thing alive. I remember the prefect coming to collect us and told us to stand outside the classroom. There was 4 of us didn't do our homework, we were pretty nervous. The prefect finally escorted us to the vice headmaster's office, but to our unfortunate luck, his door was closed. We ended up goin to the headmasters office, his door was wide open. We waited for 20 minutes then he called us in "Barnes". He gave us a small speech on how we should behave and then told us to stand outside, he called us all one by one into his office, all i coud here was 3 loud "smack" sounds and then I was next, got into the office bent over and that pain from his stick still makes my butt sore today. but a week later i got over it and laughed about it. Good times."

Shortly after that I found myself on a forum where old boys of Prince exchange news and memories. Two responded to questions about how long they'd spent there and how many times they'd been "lashed". The first one says:

"6 years
5 times (i was a goodie goodie I suppose)

late
not doing homework
late
whole class got lashed for upsetting a teacher
late again"

And the second says:

"6 years and got lashed 3 times

1. not having a hat

2.talking at assembly
3.some prefect wanting to get me lashed before i became a prefect (silly man!)

i was a goodie goodie for the most part and clever enough for the rest of it."

I tried to investigate some of those examples, thinking that some of them might have been "repeat offences", where they'd been warned two or three times before getting a lashing. But I probably asked too many questions, and I sensed some kind of defensive wall going up. The first poster didn't reply at all, and the second made a little speech about boys knowing what the boundaries were, and accepting lashing as "the price to pay for doing whatever we teenage boys decide we would rather be doing". He sums it up this way: "Prince operates by a set of principles and systems that every boy learns very quickly and you decide where in that system you will fit. There is a reason most of us talk fondly about lashings, war cries, straw bashers, etc with a lot of fondness....when we look back on our time at Prince they are all little things that help us remember some of the best years of our life. "

Now, I'm not questioning his sincerity, and maybe all the old boys on that forum take the same attitude (though two posters isn't a big sample). But a lot of it has a familiar ring. This stuff was almost history in this country when I first started going to school, but anyone who reads books knows something about those English public schools of the past where harsh treatment was considered part of every boy's education. Many seemed to survive it, or at least many became successful people, but we also know that many were screwed up by it. The literary critic Cyril Connolly once said that there were emotional reflexes hard-wired into his nervous system by his schooldays at Eton that he couldn't get rid of as a grown man. If someone said to him "So and so wants to see you in his office", it triggered an immediate surge of fear, because it evoked memories of school beatings. It must take quite a lot of courage to admit to something so ridiculous, and you have to wonder how many others there are who were emotionally damaged in ways that aren't visible, and who would never let anyone know. Are there any on that forum, for example? I'd like to hear from the casualties of the system, as well as from the tough guys, but I probably never will, because they'd never step forward. Maybe they'd stay away from forums like that altogether.

Anyway, by this time I was faced with the prospect of telling db and sil that it's unlikely the dns would get through their time at Prince without getting lashed. I gathered all the evidence together and emailed it to sil, because I believe I can get through to her in a way I might not be able to with db. There are times he can be amazingly thick, especially when things come up that run counter to his plans. But she's away at the moment, and probably won't read it till Wednesday. So I've still got some time to consider my own attitude.

What made all this quite difficult for me was trying to take a position that went against my beliefs. I had to recognize that telling them what I'd found out would cause them a big headache. So I had to take a practical approach myself. If it proved impossible to find a boys' school that didn't use corporal punishment (or at least one where they could afford the fees), there was no solution except to find the school where it was used the least. So I had to look into some alternative schools. But the feeling that I was compromising my convictions was quite unpleasant, I have to say. I questioned those former boys in a tone of voice that was like their own - i.e. light and jokey - but that wasn't what I felt. So I'm wondering what to say when I speak to db and sil face to face. Should I tell them what I think? Should I tell them how repellant the whole idea of beating boys actually is, or should I keep my mouth shut and just leave it to them? What do you think a Christian should do?

[Bonaventura]

AMIS - No, I don't think it would be for them. Part of the attraction was the idea of a more open life for the boys, more to do, more to see. The advantages would be nullified if they were staying at home all through the school term. And then there's sports. Both of them love football...

Kewcumber - when were you in Zambia?

[Bonaventura]

There's a news item about it from the Independent on Sunday. I'm in the middle of reading it...

[RoxyNotFoxy]

An update to this old thread. The school in the subject line was not named by the OP or anyone else. But it is, in fact, Prince Edward School. Since then it has been the subject of several newspaper articles in Zimbabawe, one of which I've copy-pasted below.

I should say that my uncompromising tone last November in condemning the culture of corporal punishment in Zimbabwe - and this school in particular - inspired an MNer who had been a temporary teacher at the school to accuse me of racism. She tried to get my post removed, but the MN admin declined to do what she demanded - a clear indication that the charge was ridiculous. Anyway, the article that follows shows how things have developed at Prince Edward since then, and tells me that I was right to speak as I did. I wouldn't withdraw one word of what I said. Indeed this article shows where the whole culture of corporal punishment leads - which is nowhere good.

Article begins ---

A Prince Edward School Form 2 pupil was allegedly assaulted by two prefects last Friday over a picture he had downloaded from the internet.

The 14-year-old pupil , who has not been attending lessons since the assault, sustained spinal injuries and is now on crutches. A medical report compiled by a private doctor on February 11 confims the boy sustained injuries caused by "moderate to strong force". The report also says the boy needs to undergo special X-ray to make a proper diagnosis of the injuries.

Speaking from his home yesterday, the boy said he was struck with booted feet while locked up in the music auditorium. He alleged that the attack came after he asked one of the prefects to return a picture which he had taken from him that morning. After the assault, the boy claimed, he asked the prefects to take him to the sick room but they refused and a fellow student who had witnessed the incident asked a tractor driver to help.

The matter was not reported to police because the boy's parents did not want their child to be victimised when he returns to school.

The assault, one of several such cases at the school, occurred after the headmaster gave prefects the green light to administer corporal punishment when disciplining errant pupils. However, the headmaster, a Mr Atkinson, denied giving such an instruction. He confirmed that he had heard about the case but did not have details. "We are still conducting investigations, but the ministry (of Education, Sport and Culture) will issue a statement soon," he said.

Mr Atkinson also confirmed meeting the boy's mother on Monday, but refused to disclose the nature of their discussion. The boy's mother said she would institute legal proceedings because the school did not reach a compromise with her. She said the special X-ray would cost her about £3.6 billion, adding that the boy was not on medical aid.

The assault case comes barely seven months after seven Form 6 students at the school were sentenced to perform 210 hours of community service for assaulting a Form 3 pupil.

In yet another case, an Upper six pupil and a prefect from the same school broke a Form 3 boy's finger during an assault. The two were also sentenced to 210 hours of community service.

Article ends ----

[AMumInScotland]

Wow, sounds like a charming place!

But at "the boy's parents did not want their child to be victimised when he returns to school" - he's returning to this school?!!

[RoxyNotFoxy]

They don't have much choice, AMIS. The whole ethos in Zimbabwe is quite different from what it is over here. For them education is the only route to success, the only way out of poverty and deprivation, and that fact is hard-wired into people's heads. PE is the second most prestigious school in Zimbabwe. Parents will turn a blind eye to just about anything if they can get their son into a school like that.

[AMumInScotland]

I guess if that's the "best" school, and the others aren't much better in terms of violence then it's all they can do. for them not having any other real option.

[RoxyNotFoxy]

Sorry, I might have given the wrong impression. Not all schools in Zim are as violent as PE. It might even be that it's the worst, at least amongst those with a high profile. One of my nephews went to one until last year, where he had to suffer corporal punishment several times, but is still alive. Until recently I thought all the Zim schools were probably as bad as each other, because that's the way it was in my day. But I've since found out that there's quite a divergence. The original OP doesn't seem to be around any more, but she made some enquiries because her in-laws wanted to send their sons to PE. I know she spoke to a few people, and came to the conclusion that PE was quite a lot worse than any of the others she knew about. And now these newspaper revelations show it's even worse than that.

It's bound to have a lot to do with the fact that PE is a government-run school, whereas the other high profile schools are all still private (as PE used to be). No doubt the atrocious human rights record of the Mugabe government has had a trickle-down effect into all the institutions it runs. Certainly nothing as bad as this would be happening at private schools. Fee-paying parents wouldn't put up with it for a moment. But what I said about the parents being stuck still holds good. No doubt the parents of that injured boy would love to send him to a school with more decent standards, but they can't afford the fees.

[chippergirl]

So where does racism come into it? (sorry, the threads a bit too long to read in full)

[RoxyNotFoxy]

It doesn't.

[RoxyNotFoxy]

Sorry, that was a bit abrupt. I was accused of racism by an MNer on the grounds that the majority in the country are black. She seems to take the view that If black people do bad things, you're not supposed to attack them, or else you're a racist. Also, unlike her, I was born and bred out there, but left in the 1980s. That's evidence of racism too, apparently. (She left?? Well, we know what to think about that!!!)

But the whole racism thing was nothing more than a diversion, because after two years teaching at PE school her own hands were not entirely clean. Like some other teachers from Europe that I heard about, she thought European standards could safely be dropped in a foreign country. The truth is, it was nothing more than a show of bad conscience.

[twicer]

I remember someone telling me about a similiar place, in somewhere like Hong Kong, which was also pretty abusive. But schools like that have a weak spot, which is that they like to have high profile people as their patrons so they can display a list of celeb type names on their prospectus. This school had a list of a half a dozen famous people. IIRC one of them was the pianist Vladimir Ashkenazy. The others were people in the arts or public life generally. And the thing is, they let those schools enhance their credibility by using their names without knowing anything about them or checking up on them to see if they're the kind of place they'd want to be associated with. Often those celebs haven't even visited the country, never mind the school. Anyway someone had the bright idea of writing to all the patrons and letting them know what was going on. The result was most of them immediately withdrew their patronage, which caused the school to lose a lot of face. Now if the one in Zimbabwe is as highly rated as you say, it sounds like the kind of place where they could be hit the same way. Why don't you try getting their prospectus and see who's on it? Drop them a line?

[RoxyNotFoxy]

That is f###ing brilliant! Why didn't I think of that? I'm not in a position to do much myself along those lines, but as they say, "I know a man who can".

[Bonaventura]

Thanks for posting that article, Roxy. I've only been logging in to mumsnet once in a blue moon, so I didn't see it before.

It was only a few weeks after I last posted here that my sister/bil changed their plans again. They had to, because the company my bil worked for pulled out of Zimbabwe altogether, having decided they wouldn't deal with the present regime. But even when Mugabe has gone, I should think it will take some time for conditions to be stable enough for them to return. By that time my nephews will be too far along in their school careers in the UK to have them disrupted. But I'll certainly pass this article on to them, for their interest.

Yes, I did come to the conclusion that PE was probably the worst of the Zim schools at the time I was looking in to it, but I had no idea it was this bad. The question is, was it always like this, or has it gone badly downhill in recent months/years? I don't know, but I suppose the violent atmosphere in the country generally is bound to have had some effect. What really appals is the fact that PE is considered one of the best schools in the country in terms of its academic and sporting standards. All one can say is, if that's the flagship.....

[RoxyNotFoxy]

Nice to have you back BV. It's a good thing your in-laws can't go to Zimbabwe now, it really isn't a good place to be. One example: it costs my friend in Bulawayo a week's salary to spend an hour at an internet cafe.

Was PE always like that? My db (who's seen the article) says yes, but obviously he has the advantage of hindsight. But he says all the Zim schools of that type have a hidden or semi-hidden culture of violence - boys on boys - that is strongly influenced by the officially sanctioned beating culture. Senior boys learn from their elders and betters to hurt and intimidate juniors. There's always an undercurrent of violence at those schools. It was like that in his day, but it does seem to be much worse now. But it has a certain logic. Why should boys behave better than their teachers? And once you accept that hitting people is right, where do you draw the line?