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Philosophy/religion

Would a Christian send their sons to this school?

64 replies

Bonaventura · 20/11/2007 16:35

Some might say this thread belongs in Chat, possibly as an "Am I being Unreasonable?" thread. But I'm starting it here, because, as a Catholic, I see this as a Christian question. It's certainly a moral question anyway.

My db and sil are moving to Zimbabwe next year with their family. A couple of weeks ago I realized the school they were intending to send my 2 dns to was one I had heard of before. I asked them if they were aware that corporal punishment is used there, and they said they were, but didn't think it was something they'd have to worry about because they assumed it was only used for serious misbehaviour, the kind dns would never be involved in. My information was different, though I didn't say so at the time, because I thought I ought to check up first. But they had not said anything to my mother, who had been a campaigner for STOPP (Society of Teachers Opposed to Corporal Punishment) back in the 1970s. I warned them that she'd be bound to find out eventually, and would go ballistic. So they did tell her shortly after that, and her reaction was what I expected. She was furious, and there was (and is) quite a lot of bad feeling about it. She obviously felt betrayed, because when were growing up corporal punishment was still legal in Britain, but our parents made sure we went to schools where it wasn't used.

My sympathies were with my mum, because I'm opposed to all forms of corporal punishment. But I didn't feel entitled to get up on my high horse about it, because it could be very hard to find a school in Zimbabwe that didn't use it. It put db and sil in a dilemma. I thought I'd look into it, and see if I could find out more about that school - a boys-only school I'll call "Prince". If I could satisfy myself that it was used infrequently enough that the dns were unlikely ever to suffer it, my mum might accept the idea of them going there. Or else, if I found the opposite, I'd have to inform db and sil of that fact.

The attitude my db is taking is quite casual (which is one thing that makes my mum angry), and I can see that both he and sil are quite attracted to Prince, because of its high standing and "traditional" values. Many of the better schools in Zimbabwe were established by the British in colonial times, and tend to follow some very old traditions that are no longer even permitted in schools here. I don't think they quite realize that a lot of those traditions are unhealthy and dangerous. Even if most boys survive them apparently unscathed, there are bound to be many who do not.

I already had one informant who had taught at Prince for a couple of years, and the impression I got from her was that corporal punishment was an everyday thing, and was not reserved for serious misbehaviour. But I decided to look for some back-up. I found this on a "school memories" site:

"I remember when I was in Prince in '98. Got into trouble because I didn't do my homework, the teacher was Mrs Saich, my maths teacher. She was the scariest thing alive. I remember the prefect coming to collect us and told us to stand outside the classroom. There was 4 of us didn't do our homework, we were pretty nervous. The prefect finally escorted us to the vice headmaster's office, but to our unfortunate luck, his door was closed. We ended up goin to the headmasters office, his door was wide open. We waited for 20 minutes then he called us in "Barnes". He gave us a small speech on how we should behave and then told us to stand outside, he called us all one by one into his office, all i coud here was 3 loud "smack" sounds and then I was next, got into the office bent over and that pain from his stick still makes my butt sore today. but a week later i got over it and laughed about it. Good times."

Shortly after that I found myself on a forum where old boys of Prince exchange news and memories. Two responded to questions about how long they'd spent there and how many times they'd been "lashed". The first one says:

"6 years
5 times (i was a goodie goodie I suppose)

late
not doing homework
late
whole class got lashed for upsetting a teacher
late again"

And the second says:

"6 years and got lashed 3 times

  1. not having a hat

2.talking at assembly
3.some prefect wanting to get me lashed before i became a prefect (silly man!)

i was a goodie goodie for the most part and clever enough for the rest of it."

I tried to investigate some of those examples, thinking that some of them might have been "repeat offences", where they'd been warned two or three times before getting a lashing. But I probably asked too many questions, and I sensed some kind of defensive wall going up. The first poster didn't reply at all, and the second made a little speech about boys knowing what the boundaries were, and accepting lashing as "the price to pay for doing whatever we teenage boys decide we would rather be doing". He sums it up this way: "Prince operates by a set of principles and systems that every boy learns very quickly and you decide where in that system you will fit. There is a reason most of us talk fondly about lashings, war cries, straw bashers, etc with a lot of fondness....when we look back on our time at Prince they are all little things that help us remember some of the best years of our life. "

Now, I'm not questioning his sincerity, and maybe all the old boys on that forum take the same attitude (though two posters isn't a big sample). But a lot of it has a familiar ring. This stuff was almost history in this country when I first started going to school, but anyone who reads books knows something about those English public schools of the past where harsh treatment was considered part of every boy's education. Many seemed to survive it, or at least many became successful people, but we also know that many were screwed up by it. The literary critic Cyril Connolly once said that there were emotional reflexes hard-wired into his nervous system by his schooldays at Eton that he couldn't get rid of as a grown man. If someone said to him "So and so wants to see you in his office", it triggered an immediate surge of fear, because it evoked memories of school beatings. It must take quite a lot of courage to admit to something so ridiculous, and you have to wonder how many others there are who were emotionally damaged in ways that aren't visible, and who would never let anyone know. Are there any on that forum, for example? I'd like to hear from the casualties of the system, as well as from the tough guys, but I probably never will, because they'd never step forward. Maybe they'd stay away from forums like that altogether.

Anyway, by this time I was faced with the prospect of telling db and sil that it's unlikely the dns would get through their time at Prince without getting lashed. I gathered all the evidence together and emailed it to sil, because I believe I can get through to her in a way I might not be able to with db. There are times he can be amazingly thick, especially when things come up that run counter to his plans. But she's away at the moment, and probably won't read it till Wednesday. So I've still got some time to consider my own attitude.

What made all this quite difficult for me was trying to take a position that went against my beliefs. I had to recognize that telling them what I'd found out would cause them a big headache. So I had to take a practical approach myself. If it proved impossible to find a boys' school that didn't use corporal punishment (or at least one where they could afford the fees), there was no solution except to find the school where it was used the least. So I had to look into some alternative schools. But the feeling that I was compromising my convictions was quite unpleasant, I have to say. I questioned those former boys in a tone of voice that was like their own - i.e. light and jokey - but that wasn't what I felt. So I'm wondering what to say when I speak to db and sil face to face. Should I tell them what I think? Should I tell them how repellant the whole idea of beating boys actually is, or should I keep my mouth shut and just leave it to them? What do you think a Christian should do?
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Bonaventura · 29/11/2007 19:28

AMumInScotland - that internet school sounds interesting. I never knew there was such a thing. But I doubt it would appeal. I mean, you like to be able to look back on your schooldays as a time when you were interacting with your peers face to face. Also, if they're going to a country like Zimbabwe, they'd really like to be fully engaged with everything, and not stuck at home all the time. But I'd still like to know something about it. Is there a link?

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 29/11/2007 19:46

I'm sorry no I'm NOT going to withdraw the racist charge knowing that she left in the 1980's - when most of the Whites left, I don't believe for one minute that those statements are not racist.

OTM - DH and I often lament about not having our lovely maid, as does my SIL. So it's not the reserve of the White Zimbabweans living in the UK to miss having them.

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RoxyNotFoxy · 29/11/2007 19:52

"I took Roxy's comment to be about White Zimbabweans, not black"

You're nearly right OneTrickMummy. But not quite. Yes, I was brought up during the years of white rule, and saw a lot of what people call the "bunker mentality" amongst the whites. Their rule could only be justified by treating the blacks as inferior, and the difficulty of opening up schools and making them multi-racial was one symptom of it. But I'm not such a blinkered liberal as not to know that black people can be just as stupid, cruel, greedy, avaricious, etc, as whites. The teachers at that posh school cannot fail to know that the way they are treating children is something that has been condemned in the 1st world, including the country they learned those traditions from - i.e. the UK. But they go on with it as if the outside world didn't matter. Maybe people in Zimbabwe have become calloused by the general atmosphere of oppression, but it's not very different from the "bunker mentality" that the whites had.

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pukkapatch · 29/11/2007 20:03

i realise this discussion has moved on from the op, but i want to say something about that.

the schools in this country , the uk may have moved on, but most definitly not to better things. i disagree with corporal punishment certainly, but unfortunatley, the kids now get beat up by other kids and the staff are completly powerless to do anything about it. most children do not become high acheivers. they flounder alojng, hoping everything will be all right, and they have a right to enjoy themselves.
compare this with other parts of the world, where education actually means something. where having an educaton means you can do better in life.

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RoxyNotFoxy · 29/11/2007 20:15

pukkapatch - as the OP said, we're not talking about bog-standard schools. Schools like the one in Zimbabwe are schools where the future elite will come from. In the UK today there are schools on the same level, not just the obvious ones - public schools - but high-standard state schools, where education means as much as it does in other parts of the world. And they do produce high achievers, and the problems associated with bog-standard schools don't exist. Conversely there will be poorer schools in Zimbabwe where conditions are not much different from poorer schools back in the UK, and discipline is as bad as it is over here. If kids don't have hope, and their parents don't have expectations, that's what you end up with.

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 29/11/2007 20:23

Roxy - what you fail to know or realise that Living Values in Education website here principles were starting to be applied at this "Posh" school of which we speak approx 9yrs ago, over 100 of the staff (the majority of whom are still there now) were trained in these values. Clive Barnes actively encouraged and helped to promote the work within the school and beyond.

I have no personal experience of how this has developed at the school, Barnes and Saich are 2 of the teachers that have since left. However I can't see that such a programme as this would be happy to use a school (which you have admitted ranked up there with the school that your DB attended in terms of worst for CP) for such a programme if progress were not being made of some sort.

"Progress" being the key word I believe.

This "opression" of which you speak has only really been in play for the last 10yrs - infact almost exactly 10yrs since the "black Friday" crash which for many Zimbabweans marked the started of the very rapid downward spiral. 1998 was still "the good life" until later in the year, and then it just sunk.

I find your general sweeping generalisation of "Zimbabweans" extremely offensive, and yes racist. Perhaps the people you knew nearly 30yrs ago were as you described, but you don't obviously have any recent experience of the Zimbabwean population.

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Popple · 29/11/2007 20:35

Bonaventura - isn't there an AIS in Harare? Corporate punishment certainly wouldn't be in use there.

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Popple · 29/11/2007 20:36

Bonaventura - isn't there an AIS in Harare? Corporate punishment certainly wouldn't be in use there.

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Popple · 29/11/2007 20:39

Oops, posted twice and obv. meant 'corporal'. Doh!

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 29/11/2007 20:45

lol popple - having worked at the AIS (known as HIS) in Zimbabwe I could beg to differ on the "corporate" punishment, thought the pupils are very well looked after and taught, the teachers very good, sadly the couldn't be said for how the teaching assistants were treated (when I worked there).

I'm 99.99% that the OP already has a link to the HIS and is looking into it as an option, alongside Heritage ( have you got any further on that one yet???)?

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Popple · 29/11/2007 20:50

Oh that's interesting QoQ. My ex-step-children have just started school there.

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 29/11/2007 20:53

oops - I just realised I missed out my on the bit about coporate punishment at HIS.

It wasn't that bad (although admittedly I hated the job) and definitely a good school (if you don't mind the American schooling)......

It's one of those schools though where staff, and pupils change so frequently (actually I think they do have a few more "permanent" Zimbabwean teachers now) that what it was like for TA's 9yrs ago is no reflection of what it would be like now .

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RoxyNotFoxy · 29/11/2007 21:14

I have no objection to your finding my sweeping generalizations of "Zimbabweans" offensive - that's your choice. I can equally object to your sweeping generalizations about whites who left in the 1980s. Some of them indeed left because they didn't welcome the prospect of black rule. But many left for other reasons. In Malawi the process of bringing in blacks to do the jobs formerly done by whites (a perfectly reasonable policy) meant that many whites had to leave simply because there were no jobs for them to do. My father, who worked for the government, didn't actually fall victim to it, and was still working for them 20 years after independence. My parents left because we, their children, had limited prospects there, and when our schooling was finished they upped stakes and moved to the UK. It had nothing to do with any developments in Zimbabwe at all.

But many people in Zimbabwe emigrated for similar reasons, and not because of any antipathy to black rule. But you ascribe the worst of motives to me when you say "I'm sorry no I'm NOT going to withdraw the racist charge knowing that she left in the 1980's - when most of the Whites left.." Yes, I could very easily take offence at that.

You can find my sweeping generalizations about Zimbabweans offensive, as I can find yours offensive. What I really object to is your calling them racist. I've already made it plain in post after post that my generalizations include the white population at least as much as the black. And for you to continue to say the opposite is provocative and insulting. I therefore suggest you withdraw that accusation.

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Kewcumber · 29/11/2007 22:36

I find some of your comments racist Roxy but perhaps I am stereotypically thick also. If you did not intend them to be racist you have an alarmingly aggresive way of explaining that.

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Kewcumber · 29/11/2007 22:41

when over 98% of the population is black African daying you include whites in your generalisation an irrelevance.

Its like saying "the Indians are stupid and backward, but I am including the white population in that so its not racsit"

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Bonaventura · 29/11/2007 23:04

I wish people would drop this "racist" stuff. Both Roxy and QoQ have overstepped the mark. In context, which is the continuation of corporal punishment in a country when it should have disappeared a long time ago, Roxy's remark about "pig-ignorant" Zimbabweans was not racist, since it clearly goes back in time to when she was there, and when those practices were introduced by white people who ruled the country. It's quite obvious to me that she's referring to the refusal of people in that country, white or black, to accept more humane treatment of children at school. But it's also obvious that she should have used more moderate language, and shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement about a whole nation.

When I had to look into all this, I had valuable help from both of them, and this is exactly what I didn't want. This endless bickering, with (now) new people joining in is just taking attention away from the topic.

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Kewcumber · 29/11/2007 23:15

Sorry Bonaventura - you can't control threads in that way. People will respond as they see fit. Foxy may not have intended it to be racist but I also read it as such (why was it obvious she was talking about the white minority not the black majority?), I only posted to make clear that QoQ was not the only person to have made this assumption so dubbing her "stereotypically thick" was presumably equally valid for me.

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Kewcumber · 29/11/2007 23:17

(and to be honest I'm not sure I would class a thread of 43 posts as "endless bickering"!)

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Bonaventura · 30/11/2007 00:12

It just seems endless, Kewcumber, when I remember how I began my second post - "I can see this question has gone down like a lead balloon". Ha! Famous last words.

As for whether she was talking about the black majority or the white minority, I read it as both. In her own time I imagine black teachers would have been as rare as black pupils, whereas now it would be much more mixed. But the general point seems to be that whites set the bad example in the first place.

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AMumInScotland · 30/11/2007 09:00

Bonaventura - I take your point that being educated at home would not give them the chance to fully engage with the country. Internet schools are certainly not something which would suit the majority of people, I'm just aware that most people have no idea they even exist as an option

The one I have experience of is Interhigh www.interhigh.co.uk

There is also BritESchool which has Primary classes www.briteschool.co.uk, and First College which seems less "conventional" IYSWIM www.firstcollege.co.uk

I find most people have never heard of this idea, but that's not really surprising since the oldest of them (Interhigh) was only founded in 2005....

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Kewcumber · 30/11/2007 09:39

Bsed on my own experience in Zambia - white teachers taught in the white shcools and black in the black schools

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Bonaventura · 30/11/2007 09:42

That's amazing, AMumInSctoland, I had no idea there was such a thing. But I suppose it's a logical development with PCs in nearly every home. I took a look at the interhigh w/s and I see it's still quite a modest operation in terms of scale - space for only 30. But the fees don't seem excessive at £175 a month, since you'd be dealing with teachers 1:1. Do you find it works for your son?

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AMumInScotland · 30/11/2007 10:02

It's 30 pupils per year group, not in total, so it's a bit bigger than you're thinking. My son's year is split into 2 classes, with a maximum of 15 per class (not sure at what number they split from 1 class to 2, presumably they wouldn't split 16 into 2 classes of 8...)

It has been working very well for us so far, though we're only on our first term with them so it's early days yet.

The fees are reasonable in comparison with a bricks & mortar independent school, but obviously it's a lot more than state school or other kinds of home education. They do call themselves "an independent school on the internet".

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 30/11/2007 10:20

The online school sounds like a great idea. Only one thing I would say though to bear in mind, electricity in Zimbabwe can be unpredictable at the best of times and you could run the risk of having a lot of time where the children are unable to do their school stuff because the electricity is off.

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AMumInScotland · 30/11/2007 10:28

It doesn't sound like it would be the answer for this family - the lessons are "stored" so you can go over one if you've missed it, but it would be a struggle to be always having to catch up, and they might never end up getting live lessons if they had to catch up the missed ones when the electricity came back on...

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