"Is he going to come back to life? Jesus came back to life." when talking about my dead dad

[StupidTrombone]

Since nursery did the easter story we have had a lot of questions about things coming back to life - my dad, a squashed spider etc.

I'm an aethist so have told him its just a story. How do other people handle this?

He's been told Jesus was a magic man so I wonder if I should be telling him my dad wasn't magic. But it sounds like a bit of an insult to me!

[niminypiminy]

The only Christians I have ever heard of who identify Santa Claus with the devil are your family, deepbluetr, and I can assure you they are not representative of Christians. The name Santa Claus is derived from the Dutch version of St Nicholas - and indeed in many countries Santa Claus comes on 6th December, St Nicholas's day, not 24thDecember. To suggest he's derived from Odin or a Celtic deity is simply fanciful.

[niminypiminy]

"I agree we have to respect others and their right to hold views, but we don't have to respect the views."

Or, I'll be as rude as I like and no one can stop me.

[nicename]

I work for a vicar. He dresses up as santa for the nursery kids!

[MaryWestmacott]

deepbluetr - there are other older stories that have been used to 'pad out' and enhance the Christian story of St Nicholas, but that's not where the St Nicholas story comes from (and really only until the 20th century has the American view of 'santa' and all the US myths really taken over the more local traditions, adding in fly reindeer is a relatively recent addition to the story for most Europeans).

I quite like the Luxembourgish tradition of putting out shoes to be filled with sweets by St Nick while he's finding out who's good and naughty, then putting out plates to be filled with sweets on 6th December. (DH has friends living htere, their DCs get sweets from St Nick on 6th then gifts from mummy and daddy on Christmas day, no flying reindeer, although St Nicholas apparently has a donkey to pull his very unmagical cart full of sweets).

OP - you might be better off properly explaining what Christians believe, your DS seems to have just picked up the 'coming back from the dead' bit but not really anything else. How about explaining that to Christians, Jesus was God's son and a very special person who died so that God could forgive Christians for all the naughty things they have done or will do in the future, and he came back to life to show how special and powerful god is. Christians don't believe that God brings other people back to life, and you don't believe that Jesus came back to life or that he was God's son, but people who are Christians do.

[OneEggIsAnOeuf]

Re Santa's connections to Odin, many pagans see Odin as a precursor to Santa, and not without reason. From Wiki:

^The god Odin's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (see Odin's horse Sleipnir), which was traded for reindeer in North America.[18] Margaret Baker comments that "The appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. … Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild became a leading player on the Christmas stage."^

Re Santa as satan, there are certainly christians who make this association, just not commonly in the uk. Have a look at this website, or maybe this quote from a baptist article:

^So talk to your children before it is too late! Tell them that Santa is no kindly old man; he is an evil demon. And next time your family sees some propped up gin-soaked vagrant in a Mall wearing a red suit with white furry cuffs, set a good example and witness for the other deluded people waiting in line. Loudly, rebuke him! Announce to all the children in the store "Not only is Santa a lie, he will ravage you sexually, drink your blood and drag your palpating carcasses down to Hell with him!" It is only through setting a good example that we can put the Christ back in Christmas.^

I appreciate that this is not the attitude of most christians, but it is wrong to suggest that it does not exist.

[capsium]

deep you cannot deny the Santa Claus tradition can be attributed to the St Nicholas account, hence the name (Santa Claus) and gifts coming down the chimney.

Although, as with many oral traditions, bits are added on which often draw upon myths, retrospectively, which were part of different cultural traditions - the references to Odin and Cernunnos, as you have mentioned.

[capsium]

OneEgg
I think our current Christmas celebrations are quite different to the old Yule ones!


"A description of pagan Yule practices is provided (notes are Hollander's own):

It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. Also all kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [ sacrificial blood ], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [ aspergills ]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over them. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat.[10]"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

[headinhands]

The only Christians I have ever heard of who identify Santa Claus with the devil are your family,

This very belief has been spoken about on these boards before, check this thread out from last December for example:
Santa is the Devil in disguise- Poor little 4 year old

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Head, I think that is Deep's family.

[headinhands]

There's other people on there who have heard if it. And a quick google shows it's not only deep's family who hold such an opinion. Why would it matter to you/anyone if some Christians believe Satan to be Santa? By what process do you find it unreasonable, if you do?

[niminypiminy]

This discussion stems from a reply I made to deepbluetr, who said that Santa Claus was a mythical, made-up story. I pointed out that this is not true, and that the figure of Santa originates in the historical figure of St Nicholas -- so, strictly speaking, Santa Claus is legendary not mythical. I went on to say that I told my children that Santa, the reindeer-sleigh riding, chimney-descending person is a story, but based on the real figure of St Nicholas, who left secret gifts for people.

Oneeggisanoeuf posted some links to Christian sites identifying Santa and Satan. Please note though that these are extremist, conservative fundamentalist groups who do not represent the vast majority of Christian opinion. That is why it matters: because it's a smear tactic to point to some extreme view and say 'that is what Christians think' or 'that is what real Christians think'. It is neither.

[headinhands]

Out of interest, in your opinion what would make the belief that Santa is satan extreme?

[niminypiminy]

Stop stirring. It's perfectly clear why it is extreme.

[deepbluetr]

"deep you cannot deny the Santa Claus tradition can be attributed to the St Nicholas account, hence the name (Santa Claus) and gifts coming down the chimney." I am not denying that. I am simply saying that the caharcter of santa claus stems from many sources, some of which are pagan.

[capsium]

deep

The legend of Santa Claus is much older than even that. His roots can be traced back to Odin (with his flying reindeer) and The Celtic God of the forest ( Cernunnos)

Both mythical creatures.

I read this as suggesting you thought the Santa Claus tradition was originally Pagan. Whereas I think of Santa Claus as a Christian Saint for which the account of his life has been liberally embellished drawing material from some more Pagan/cultural sources.

[deepbluetr]

Santa Claus doesn't exist and never has. Perhaps you forget this.

He is a mythical creature whose characteristics are blended from many different sources. Some of them are pagan in origin.

[capsium]

Santa Claus is a Christian Saint. He lived. The thought / spirit behind his actions is remembered and lives on in us when we celebrate Christmas by giving gifts.

[headinhands]

it's perfectly clear

It must be easy to explain if it's perfectly clear. The point I'm making, and the one you're trying to dodge is that the reasons you deplore the belief that satan is Santa could be equally and soundly used to reject your beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong? If I am talk me though why it's an extreme view.

[deepbluetr]

I don't dispute the fact that there was a man who became a saint, was nice to kids etc. I get all that. But that's not the Santa Claus we are talking about. THe one our kids know and love wears a red suit, has magical reindeer and delivers toys to millions of children all in one night in his magical sleigh.

He is a mythical man. Yes part of him ( including his name) have come from some greek guy in the 4th century, just as some aspects come from Nordic, Celtic and Pagan influences.

That doesn't make him real though. Just as god isn't real.

[expatinscotland]

I tell mine it's just a story. It is. No one comes back. It's everyone's fantasy, but it's just that.

[capsium]

I think there are some different experiences of Santa deep. My DC likes the Saint Nicholas story, he sees a kind man in this. However my DC has never liked the thought any of the embellished version of Santa, from being very small. Didn't like the thought of a magical bearded man coming into our house, was scared of this.

This was not particularly from myself, my family are hugely into Santa with all the embellishments. One good thing is there is no heartache later in finding out the one in the red suit with fur trim is a story. I just say some people like to imagine Santa actually visits them and tell stories about this and not to spoil their fun!

[capsium]

I had to assure that Santa does not climb down chimneys in the middle of the night uninvited.

Wouldn't have any of the tooth fairy either. Tears were involved concerning this sort of thing, and there were shouts of not wanting any presents. The St Nicholas account really helped here.

[capsium]

Don't know why exactly but I have heard of other children beng scared of Santa too.

[headinhands]

We have a chap at nursery who is terrified of Santa and Pudsey Bear. So scared was he that he ran into a wall, he was that desperate to be away from him. Over the years there's always one or two that are averse to Father Christmas.

[OneEggIsAnOeuf]

^it's a smear tactic to point to some extreme view and say 'that is what Christians think' or 'that is what real Christians think'.^

Niminy, it is nothing of the sort. The people who believe this stuff tend to be right wing fundamentalists as you say, and i took pains to point out that it is NOT what most Christians think. I would not have bothered to say that if I was trying to tar all Christians with the same brush.

You posted that the only Christians you know who identify Santa with Satan are Deepblue's family, so I posted some links to show that they are not the only ones, and it was wrong to suggest they are some kind of anomaly. I could have posted endless links. These kind of beliefs may not play a part in your brand of Christianity but they do for others who are unfortunately not some harmless minority sect with no influence in the real world.