Showing respect for other people's beliefs...

[curlew]

I think it's very important to be polite and considerate to other people. I'm not sure about the "respect" word, because to me it sounds a little deferential, but certainly consideration and politeness.

Which would include not challenging people about their faith unless I felt it was potentially damaging to someone else or was having a direct impact on me or someone else, or if I was in a discussion/argument about different beliefs.

But how far does this go? Do I have to be polite and considerate about people who believe in horoscopes, or Vedic flying or the Great Arclesiezure? Or can I restrict it to the world's great religions?

[tuffie]

And being horrified that your child is gay, a cleaner, a teenage mum etc only serves to perpetuate the attitude that somehow these people are inferior. So whatever the reason given, it is wrong. Not to mention the psychological damage it must do to the child , feeling he has not lived up to his parents' expectations.

[curlew]

Really, goth Anne? I just assumed she wasn't being homophobic, just not expressing herself clearly.Was I being naive?

[killpeppa]

naive

[CoteDAzur]

For the hard of understanding: I have nothing against factory workers, gays, and cleaners. However, I would not like DC to be factory workers, gays, or cleaners.

One reason is (as curlew said) I'd like their lives to be easier rather than harder. And I'd rather they use their opportunities to the fullest and attain a high level of education that will then allow them to do something other than menial work for minimum wage.

As I said before, it has to do with a parent's aspirations for their DC. Fine, if you don't aspire to anything better for your DC but it is perfectly normal to hope that one's DC to aim and attain much higher than zero-qualification menial jobs.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cote - it is not being stupid or "hard of understanding" to point out that your previous comments sounded bigoted. It is also very odd to equate sexuality (something you cannot choose) with career prospects, which you can generally can have some control over.

[CoteDAzur]

I didn't "equate" the two things. I gave examples of how a parent might not want a certain life for their child while not hating, fearing, or being prejudiced against people who have that life.

This is exactly what I said:

CoteDAzur Wed 30-Oct-13 20:06:46
Is it homophobic to not want your son to be gay? I have nothing against factory workers but I'd hate to see DS become one.

Now, you can choose to misinterpret my point above as "Oooh, Cote is bigoted, look!" or you might choose the simpler and intellectually more honest path of seeing the comment for what it is - just pointing out that a person does not have to be homophobic to not want their DC to be gay. It doesn't mean that the same parent will not support their child if they do turn out to be gay, either.

[curlew]

So what are your reasons for not wanting your son to be gay?

[BackOnlyBriefly]

CoteDAzur, when you said that my first thought was that you probably meant "because of the way society still treats gay people", but you were going to meet hostility unless you said that from the start.

I expect a lot of people feel that way to be honest. Things have improved a lot, but being gay is still difficult.

I'd like to see the day when it makes no difference at all, but I think that is still generations away. Even if there was only one homophobic person left in the country that still could be the person sitting next to you or interviewing you for a job.

[CoteDAzur]

Mainly, societal pressure & prejudice, especially in formative school years. I have heard truly awful stories from several gay friends about their prepubescent & teenage years which they say have traumatised them I hope for DC to have easy & happy lives, and being out of the ordinary (for any reason) does not make it easy to thrive, unfortunately. There is also a part of me that would find it hard to come to terms with never having biological grandchildren, but that is a selfish thought I can bury in due time, if it ever comes to that.

[tuffie]

My ds is a high flier in a well paid job. My dd has an unskilled job ( what Cote would probably call a " domestic cleaner" or "factory worker"). My dh and I have brought them up exactly the same with lots of love and encouragement. Both are very happy and we recognise that dd hasn't the same ability as ds but we are equally proud of them both, as we would be if either were gay.
As I said before those who would hate their dd or ds to be a domestic cleaner or gay are actually re inforcing the exact societal pressure and prejudice that Cote herself has just cited.

[CoteDAzur]

My "societal pressure & prejudice" was re homosexuality, not unskilled menial jobs.

Re unskilled work - It is no secret that the only jobs available to unskilled workforce are the most basic, often menial, and the worst paid. This is not prejudice but the reality. One parent's wish that her DC will do better than this is not at all a reinforcement of anything but a recognition of the realities of life and a wish for DC to do as well as they possibly can.

[tuffie]

I am just rushing out but just wanted to ask one question, Cote. (and I am just trying to understand not criticise.)

Do you not think that you being" horrified" that one of your children were to become any one of these things ( gay/ cleaner, factory worker)in any way makes these things appear in your mind inherently wrong/inferior?
Which in my opinion- and those of my dd , who is one of them - are not.
She has done "as well as she possibly can". As has a gay person who to my mind is in no way a lesser being than you or I.

[CoteDAzur]

Why would I think anyone doing whatever job or having sex with another consenting adult in any way they want "inferior" or "lesser being" (ffs!) than myself?

My post wasn't that difficult to understand, so I can only conclude that you are deliberately going on a witch hunt, hoping I will slip and give you a sound bite. Sorry, but I'm not playing.

[tuffie]

Because you clearly stated that you would be horrified if any child of yours was gay or a cleaner.
I am certainly not "going on a witch hunt." I just struggle to find that view in any way helpful to gays and cleaners.
But understand if you don t want to continue the discussion.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Come on. Is there anyone here who wouldn't rather their child got a great career?

Sure you'd love them if they were poor and doing something that they got no joy from, but truthfully you'd be hoping they'd grow up to be a doctor, a lawyer, an artist or something that paid well and fulfilled them.

At the very least you've surely considered that they might support you in your old age. :)

[tuffie]

Of course BOB, but not every child is capable of a great career - my dd for example. She is however happy, and imo this is far more important than having pressure put on her to be something she cant. And having a parent who is horrified.
I am very proud of her.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

No one mentioned pressure.

Hey, I didn't have an exciting career and I am happy, but all things being equal it's nice if they get all the good things

[tuffie]

Yes I totally agree BOB.(And my dd gets lots of good things!).
It is not your attitude that I am struggling with.