Living in an atheist world

[fifi669]

Anyone else find it difficult at times? My faith is unfaltering. I just find other peoples attitudes a bit draining sometimes.

I had a woman at work taking the piss out of Christians to me so I told her I was one. She looked at me like I had two heads. (She'd obviously not noticed the crucifix).

Constant stupid questions such as do you believe in the tooth fairy too? Come about once religion is mentioned. Sigh.

Unless asked a relevant question I keep my faith to myself and don't shove it in peoples faces. I don't see why people can't do the same with their atheism.

[DoctorTwo]

sonlypuppyfat Fri 25-Oct-13 19:41:13

Thing is, when you have faith you want to share it . My friend went to a funeral and the vicar said if you don't believe in Jesus this is it for you the end. Wouldn't you want to save people from that.

Death is not the end, just as birth is not the beginning. The difference between theists and atheists is that you think there is an afterlife and we know what that afterlife consists of. It's why we should be teaching physics instead of superstition.

As Aaron Freeman says, taken from Elise Andrews' Facebook page "I Fucking Love Science":-

"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Ramen"

My kids have been taught that the atoms that make us us will exist in one form or another forever, and that it has nothing to do with any of the 4000 or so gods that 'exist' in the heads of man and everything to do with science.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

Given that I do a lot of funerals I'm not that impressed with the post about physicist at the funeral which I've seen a number of times online. It is recasting the physicist as a priest which does shed some light on some atheists wanting science to give them more than the how and what which it is qualified to give.

Of course endlessly recycled; we are stardust as was once said. People also live on in the memories of their loved ones (or relief in the people that really did not like them but are too polite to say) but death is the end unless you have faith in a religion that believes in an afterlife. At a funeral there is a coffin which is a very real reminder that the death is real. That is one of the reasons we have a funeral.

If you don't have faith in a religion then that is your choice. We live in a consumer society after all and you do have a choice to believe or not believe. Being rude and dismissive about other people's choices says more about the person making the comments than that which is derided and dismissed.

Good luck with trying to be rational with people in early bereavement. It isn't what people (mostly) want or need and that insight comes from psychology, a science, and not faith.

[curlew]

"Good luck with trying to be rational with people in early bereavement. It isn't what people (mostly) want or need and that insight comes from psychology, a science, and not faith."

Yep. So much easier to accept that God has a plan which involved their child dying, despite their desperate prayers, and one day they will understand that it was all for the best.......

[Rosieres]

Technodad - my point was that you were implying that atheists don't push their views on others, yet often on threads in the religion section of Mumsnet atheists are trying to do just that. Sometimes it's appropriate, say if someone comes on and asks a question for atheists to respond to or if someone is wanting to debate a specific point. Sometimes it isn't, such as if a person isn't looking for an argument but wanting to connect with people who share a faith perspective. This thread is one example of the latter. Another example is a thread where a gay Christian asked for information on churches in a particular area, and had someone wanting to argue with them about why they would want to go to a church.

Yes, people aren't forced to look at a thread on a web forum in the way they have no choice about the House of Lords, but if a person starts a thread for a given reason and someone else derails that thread in another direction then you have taken their choice away from them.

You have a genuine point about your kids and the school they go to, and I'm not a conservative religious tub-thumper for church schools. I suspect your concerns about singing the national anthem and the House of Lords don't make any material difference to your day to day life, but you can have intellectual reservations about them if you want. But given that you have posted nearly 200 messages on the religion section of mumsnet in the last year I suspect you have a bee in your bonnet about religion far in excess of the reasons you cite. You say people shouldn't "waste their lives on something pointless", but you seem to waste a lot of time wanting to tell religious people what you think about religion.

Perhaps we all just need to calm down and recognise that we live in a pluralist society and not everyone shares our views. And that includes not trolling when people are on an internet forum for pastoral rather than argumentative reasons.

[curlew]

Trolling? Might be a good idea to retract that..........


Oh, and look at the thread title. If the OP wasn't interested in debate and opinion, why not start a thread with a less provocative title?

[headinhands]

Actually the op didn't ask atheists not to post, she actually said she wondered why atheists didn't keep their views to themselves. Is that not an open question atheists? You'll find many threads in this area that atheists don't post on such as the prayer requests and so on. Most of us can distinguish between where is and isn't appropriate to post

[Coupon]

So, three religious things which the non-religious don't appreciate.

Religion in schools
Religious callers at the door
Bishops in politics

That still leaves pretty much everything else in life, from work to entertainment, with no religious aspect at all (all those non-religious sales callers at the door for a start!) or an anti-relgious stance.

[MostlyLovingLurchers]

I think it is fair to say that atheists do not generally gate crash threads that are clearly for those with a similar faith to discuss and share that faith, e.g. the prayer threads (there are always exceptions of course).

In the case of this thread, the op called it 'living in an atheist world' - do you not think that is going to attract the attention of atheists? It may not have been her intention to start a debate, but if you state something falsely (that the world is atheist) then people are going to respond to that with evidence to the contrary. If the thread had been called -Christians only please - how do you deal with this?' or something similar then it may not have attracted so much attention.

I alienate atheists since I believe in a soul, and alienate Christians since I don't believe in god! However, I do not encounter much hostility towards my beliefs on here or elsewhere since my beliefs do not impact on other people's lives in the way Christianity does.

[curlew]

I don't care for religion in politics and social policy either. Or court time being taken up by Christians claiming to be persecuted because they are finally being asked to obey the law of the land rather than having special privileges.....

[headinhands]

Calm down? What makes you think we're not calm? And your pluralist point would all be well and good if we didn't have bishops in the House of Lords etc.

[headinhands]

Would people be so blasé if the government suddenly decided Hinduism was the state religion and children were expected to sing songs about Lakshmi and Brahman in assemblies? And there were seats in the House of Lords that only Hindu Priests could fill?

[technodad]

Sorry Rosieres, I didn't realise that discussing issues which I feel pasionate about is trolling. I thought this forum was about religious issues, not only for religious people. Ahhh well, maybe we can make this another area in society where atheists can be discriminated against. I seem to remember something about free speach being fairly important, I can't remember where I read it though!

You very quickly dismiss my concerns about the national anthem etc as being tiny little issues where I am being over sensitive, but as always, some people within the religious community fail to see how they would react if the shoe was on the other foot.

Imagine if the national anthem was changed to include the words "God doesn't exist and will never save anyone"! There would be an absolute uproar from christians, I can see the headlines and hours of news coverage now! All I am saying, is that we should have a secular society where god is not part of our consitution, so that we have a fully inclusive society.

Imagine if your kids went to school, and the assembly sessions specifically concentrated on the lack of existance in god. You would be marching on Gove's parlamentary office - and you never know, I might even be marching with you!

So, before you acuse me of trolling, please at least try to see things from someone elses perspective rather than the selfish protectionist position you currently have.

Finally, if you think atheists on this forum are rude, you have no idea. Yes, we might joke about "imaginary friends", but this is nothing in comparison to some of the hateful coments I have read from religious people.

For example, I read one post where someone stated to a mother whose child had died, that it was gods way to punish the parents for sins that they have comitted, or will comit in the future. Really nice!

Have a nice weekend!

[technodad]

Oh, and before people say that we can't change the national anthem, because we are a chritian society, consider this.

In Saudi, that have a history of opressing women, and cutting people's hands off as punishment for crimes. It is part of their society too.

So, are you saying that we should not change society to make it better for all, just because we have old traditions?

(no, I am not saying that the national anthem is the same as getting my hands cut off before you go there either).

[fifi669]

Hi, I'm the OP and my intention as stated and restated a few times was to seek support from other people of faith.

The thread has descended into some debate about Christianity, which is what I said I find draining. Anytime I mention my faith, I get this sort of thing.

By saying I live in an athiest world, I wasn't meaning the actual world, there are hundreds of religions covering the globe, I know this. Rather that my world, my workplace, friends, most of my family, people that I meet, day to day I live in an athiest bubble.

This bubble will occasionally find someone who wants to argue about my faith (when I've just gone out for a drink), or mock me.

My faith is my own. If you want to know about it, ask. Just don't come up with some argument against it, thinking you're clever and original, when I've heard them all before many times.

[Rosieres]

I haven't much time for a long response as I'm just about to go away for half term...

Just to say that I agree that many of the issues that the posters here are concerned about are legitimate. I do think there is a discussion to be had about the role of faith in public education, and the boundaries it operates within. As I said above, I'm not an out and out apologist for church schools. I also agree that the place that symbols (religious or otherwise) play in public life (e.g. in the national anthem) is another area for discussion. And regarding the House of Lords, the role of bishops is one small aspect of a whole huge can of worms of how that institution functions in a democracy.

My point is more on a pastoral level, rather than looking for an argument. It's fine to have strong opinions, and it's fine to exercise your right of free speech. But it's also useful to view these threads through the lenses of human concern, and recognise that sometimes a person isn't looking to discuss a range of issues and have a good old ding-dong about the merits and demerits. Sometimes people are looking for a bit of support at a time when they are not feeling at their best or have had what, for tem, was a negative experience. At that point pushing strong opinions and claiming free speech is probably not appropriate. And, as the OP has said several times, they are not looking for an argument, but are just wanting to talk to others of a faith persuasion to see if their experiences matched up. So give fifi a break, and if you want to express your free speech about how oppressed you feel by your local school or the national anthem you could do that by starting a separate thread, and if fifi wants to engage in discussion she then has the free choice to do so.

Anyway, a week away beckons, so if you have some time off coming up over half term I hope you enjoy it, and if you've just had half term and managed to have a break I hope it was a good time.

All the best,

Rosieres.

[exexpat]

Sorry if you feel your thread has been derailed, OP. I think the title was just a bit provocative...

Basically, I think people who go out of their way to be dismissive of your beliefs to your face are being rude. Some people are just like that - as a vegetarian, I have had to deal with lots of people wanting to regale me with anecdotes about juicy steaks and why I should be eating them, when I was not trying to impose my views on them. I find that rude, annoying and unnecessary. I expect the same people would be the kind to be pick on your beliefs, your taste in clothes/music/football teams etc. Some people are just like that.

But I would also say that debate on an anonymous, public Internet forum is rather different from making fun of someone's beliefs in person.

[headinhands]

Surely it's more helpful to help the op see things from alternative angles. Just agreeing with her to make her feel better is a bit patronising though? I wouldn't want the people around me to agree with me just to make me feel okay, I would rather I was encouraged to see the wider picture where possible. Of course that's not always possible, for example if someone is in crisis but by and large posters here are just churning through day to day emotions.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

fifi669 there is a support thread for Christians which may be a better place for concerns such as the one you have raised here.

exexpat has a point. If you are overweight or vegetarian or red haired or Christian or have a different skin colour or disability whatever then you will get comments. Not the nicest part about the way people behave.

[technodad]

Since the OP's thread has been derailed, I figure we should carry on with the debate. OP - it might be worth starting a thread called "someone was horrible to me and I want some sympathy", keep it neutral and I am sure you will only get sympathy.

Coupon said "So, three religious things which the non-religious don't appreciate.

Religion in schools
Religious callers at the door
Bishops in politics

That still leaves pretty much everything else in life, from work to entertainment, with no religious aspect at all (all those non-religious sales callers at the door for a start!) or an anti-relgious stance."

What a strange thing to say!

The rest of your life is not anti-religious, it is just non-religious. The X-Factor is not an anti-chrisian TV show, it is just a rubbish TV show, that many atheists think is shit.

The salesman that knocks on your door selling you dish-mops, isn't selling satanic dish-mops, they are just... dish-mops.

Are you seriously saying that society need to keep teaching religion to my kids against their (or my) wishes, to balance out the injustaces of the fact that your dish-mops aren't blessed with holy water?

Crap TV and door to door salesmen, are not a product of an atheist or secular society, they are part of capitalism! You are targetting the wrong root cause, and showing the poor thought you have put into your argument!

You blame the failings of society on people with no religion - no wonder people with no religion make fun of chrisians and insult you, it is purly a reaction to such rediculous accusations.

[technodad]

hegreenheartofmanyroundabouts

"exexpat has a point. If you are overweight or vegetarian or red haired or Christian or have a different skin colour or disability whatever then you will get comments. Not the nicest part about the way people behave."

You missed "or atheist" from your list.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

If there was thread entitled "Living in a non vegetarian world" started by a vegetarian/vegan, I would think they wanted support from their fellow vegans/vegetarians. Likewise with this thread.

Also, I'm sure there OP realises that there are worse problems in the world, but if no one posted because other people have it worse there would be no Mumsnet.

But no it has been derailed by the same tedious atheist arguments, we've even had the obligatory quote from "I fucking love science", I'm surprised we've not had a Tim Minchin video yet.

A big problem with atheists on here is that they do not start their own threads, they crap all over other people's unless apparently specifically asked not to and even then they whine about "free speech" and "being free to post where they like".

Some atheists on here have exactly the same debating/discourse style as the most intolerant religious types. As much as they deny it, they've turned atheism into just another religion.

[technodad]

Gosh

Vegetarians don't have privilege within society, so your comparison is ridiculous.

A better analogy might be - if an investment banker posted about how he/she was fed up with snide comments about being the cause of the financial crisis.

I wonder how that thread would go

[technodad]

I start threads!

Once again - you make untrue blanket statements

I started one yesterday.

[Coupon]

You didn't read my post properly technodad. I clearly stated that the rest of life is either "with no religious aspect at all" or "anti religious", not that it was all anti-religious! No need at all to go off on a rant about something that wasn't there.

You blame the failings of society on people with no religion

Where did I say that? You're just putting words into my mouth and inventing stuff now. Ironic since you probably think religious people make things up!

no wonder people with no religion make fun of chrisians and insult you

That's just spiteful and unnecessary.