Why innocent children are allowed to suffer? e.g. Hamzah Kham, his siblings and much more thorough the world.

[Hopemore]

I just find it so hard to keep my faith strong when I see innocent people suffering so badly.
I try to be good, helpful, generous.
I try to cause no harm, etc
But that is not enough for me, I need to have faith.
But it is hard to keep strong, it really is.
I don't want to be an hypocrite, I really want to have a solid faith but sometimes I think I just can't have it.
Not because of my life, I am grateful for everything I have, but I feel 'angry' for so much suffering in the world.
Sorry if I don't make any sense.

[expatinscotland]

Well put, Briefly!

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Thanks expat.

niminypiminy as others have said we know about the bad stuff. Wishing doesn't make it go away and we've established that god can't help.

Maybe you could give us a rough idea which god you believe in. Because heaven & hell are pretty mainstream beliefs and last I looked so was judgement day. When I was growing up the churches were saying that jesus was coming in the year 2000. They knew this because the bible told them so. They have been a bit quiet since so I guess it's been postponed, but there are plenty preaching that it's due any time.

I suppose most importantly I'd like to know if you believe that everyone who ever lived will be going to heaven. Because if not then it's not a very good deal for them is it. Could you bear to be in heaven knowing that others were not so fortunate?

[niminypiminy]

Backonlybriefly, I don't think we've established that God can't help with the bad stuff. You've said several times that he doesn't and I've said several times that he does, and we've been round the houses on that. I don't think we are going to reach a resolution because we fundamentally disagree.

I don't know whether everyone who ever lived will be going to heaven. That's partly because I don't know everything that God knows, and partly because there are good arguments both ways. I hope that everyone will go to heaven, because I believe that to be in the void where God is not, in eternity, would be the worst thing that could happen to you. But I don't know for certain.

It sounds as if you grew up in extreme evangelical Protestantism. Not all churches predict the date of the Second Coming -- in fact, few of them do. Perhaps your view of Christianity is seriously warped. I don't know.

I need to bow out of this thread now, because it's taking up too much of my time, and I've got a lot on, and because it's making me feel too irritated. I've tried to post as thoughtfully and articulately as I can, and I hope something in my posts has meant something to someone reading it. I've done my best to give a thoughtful Christian response to questions, and to pose some of my own. That will have to do for now.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Well I meant 'can't because it would break his rules' that time, but I wasn't clear I agree.

It's not so much that I grew up in a strict religious environment, but that I'm older. Nowadays a lot of the traditional truths have been quietly shelved. I've watched religion retreat over the years as its followers found various parts difficult to defend.

A lot of christians - especially in the uk - now seem to feel that religion consists of just their 'relationship' with god - whatever that means.

In the US though they still speak of hellfire and damnation.

[expatinscotland]

Back, I hope by my posting you realise how much you have helped.

[expatinscotland]

nim is boils down to this to me: your god supposedly made some sacrifice, of his child. Yeah? There is not a parent alive here who wouldn't go first, so that makes us less than, not able to understand because He is God. Yeah? Well, he said we were all god, too, made in his image. Okay. Let's put that aside for a minute, we were so bad he made that sacrifice.

Yeah?

Well he got him back after 3 days.

Really? Do you know what people who have lost their child would do to get them back? Oh, but they are not god, I guess, not the same. Sounds like Tories to me. One rule for you, one for me.

I read this book I read one time put it best. It is called 'The Yellow on the Broom', a memoir of a woman who was born to a Scottish travelling family in about 1919.

Her mother had lost her only two sons, to pneumonia from whopping cough, among other children.

One day the 'Hallelujah hantle', missionaries, came to their camp.

They asked if she could read. She said no, the lass does, but answer me this, what is this about Abraham asked to sacrifice his son? I'm just an ignorant gan' aboot (going about) body, but even I would ken (know) the depths of someone's love for me without dreaming to ask such a thing. If that's your god you can keep him,' and then she dismissed them by saying she needed to get on with supper.

But really, really?

Either you intervene or you don't. Either you are all-powerful or you aren't.

Proclaiming you know people, to their core, you created them, and that you love them, but expecting them to deal with everything that is pure shit is abuse, not love.

[headinhands]

Nimmy, even if studies did show we were getting more violent, that's not evidence for a loving god. It's not evidence for anything of itself. It's like posters who try to pull evolution apart. Even if evolution was disproved it doesn't mean the creation story is any less false.

[curlew]

"I've done my best to give a thoughtful Christian response to questions, and to pose some of my own. That will have to do for now."

I'm really sorry, but I honestly don't think "Look at the cross" is a thoughtful Christian response.

And I'm also sorry that you're irritated by this thread, but it seems to me that if you make statements about god and belief then you've got to be prepared to defend them. And not be irritated by any form of challenge.

[headinhands]

'Look at the cross'. That irritated me too. We're talking about children being abused and you're throwing out 'look at the cross' as a response and you can't understand how crass that seems?

[Nicknamegrief]

So ...

If we accept that God has given man the ability to choose and act for himself and not to be his puppets we have to accept that he can not intervene. Divine intervention is more about the right place and the right time, in my opinion it is not about God making puppets of people. It's only is going to be a principle you can accept if you believe in God though. If you don't you'll have other views.

If we accept that God has asked us to become like him that means we have to learn and learn for ourselves. At some point as a parent you have to teach your child correct principles and then let them govern themselves. I am teaching my oldest child how to cross the road safety. At some point he will do it without me being there. Will it be my fault if he chooses not to listen to my instructions? As a parent we can teach and teach and teach but we can not stop every bad thing happening to our children. What we can help them do is put it into perspective and help them carry on. That is what I think God does for us, if we want him to.

If we expect God to intervene then surely he should intervene in everything. But that would make puppets of us all. When do you start to intervene, do you punish people for their thoughts, words or actions? Do you stop them being born? If you knew your child was going to fail their exams, would you stop them taking them, do the exam for them, force them to work every minute of everyday?

For those children who suffer any form of abuse, life is terrible. If I could stop it I would. I do what i can in practical terms to try and stop and stand up for such injustices. I have faith in an eternity when those injustices will be put right. I choose to believe in an eternity not spent simply worshipping God but in one where I can experience blessings I (and others) missed out in this life, where wrongs are put right and things are made whole.

As for God sacrificing his 'only begotten', in Christainity the belief is that the sacrifice of one was made to save the rest. He sacrificed his strongest child for the rest. Albeit temporally, and as God he knew that. That is not an easy option but unfortunately is actually a choice some parents have also had to make.

This is my opinion and my beliefs, they help me gain comfort in a world where such wickedness exists. I am aware many people will disagree with me, but that is up to them.

[curlew]

The exact post was-
"Ah, but God does help: look at the cross."

So. God creates the world and everything in it. He decides what's sinful and what's not. The people he creates commit lots of sins. Instead of punishing them (on this occasion- the last time he drowned them), he creates a half human half god creature to sacrifice on humanity's behalf.

His creature dies in agony, but 3 days later is resurrected and is subsequently taken into Heaven to live in glory for ever. And God can now say," look, I loved you all sooo much I sacrificed my son for you. What more do you want, humanity? What do you mean, you want me to intervene to help your son the way I helped mine? Well, you can pray if you like, but my hands are tied. Free will, you see. Sorry about that. I might move in a mysterious way in a bit- or I might not. But don't worry, it's all part of a plan you're too stupid to understand. One day you'll see why it was the best possible thing for you to have your child die despite the prayers of thousands............"

[curlew]

Nicknamegrief- then why did he say he would answer prayers? I could quote you loads of biblical texts where he specifically says that. Why say it if he can't/won't?

[headinhands]

Ah the old parent analogy. The thing is god is with that child when they choose not to look when crossing the road, he's with the driver who'll be scarred for life. He's also with the 6 year old being abused by her dad. Watching and hearing her cry and doing nothing. That's the difference between me and your god. I couldn't sit and watch. And as for people who say 'he cries with us'. Ah, poor god, crying because he can't break a rule he made because he'll be upset with himself.

[headinhands]

So if we can sin because of free will and we need free will to not be puppets what's heaven going to be like? Just a load of puppets or the same as here?

[MostlyLovingLurchers]

If we accept that God has given man the ability to choose and act for himself and not to be his puppets we have to accept that he can not intervene. Divine intervention is more about the right place and the right time, in my opinion it is not about God making puppets of people.

What though is the rationale for god not intervening when things happen that are not of their own (or anyone else's) doing? I can (almost) understand the parent-child analogy in terms of allowing your children to learn by the consequences of their actions, but why would you not help them when they are suffering through no fault of their own, if you could? Life limiting illness is not always caused by people's actions is it?

As for god intervening in a right time right place kind of a way, what about wrong place wrong time? When you just happen to be in the path of a tsunami, when you just happen to cross the road as a speeding car comes down the road and hits you? Seems to be yet again a case of giving god the glory when things go right but not blaming him when they go wrong.

[Nicknamegrief]

Easier ones first (IMO)...

Heaven is full of the people who use their will to make good choices. Our will is not free, there are consequences to pay for it.

Prayer is not about you getting what you want out of a situation. It's about understanding God's plan for you. There are lots of scriptures that talk about God answering prayers, but it doesn't necessarily mean he'll answer them with the answer we want.

Many things (and maybe even most things) that happen to you aren't about you being the victim of your own wrong choice. Where life exists so does death. Many of us don't pick and choose what happens to us, they just happen and suffer we do. I have met lots of people who carry burdens I feel I would break with yet they seem to bear them well. Some of them will have a belief in God that helps them do this and others will have something that is inherent in their nature. How we deal with with things says more about us than what we deal with. I would call it the refiners fire (but that's because I believe in God).

I don't know how God can stand and watch a child been abused, I don't know how he could watch the holocaust and other such things. But I don't have his eyes, I don't know what he is preparing for those people. It boils down to a personal belief that I choose to have because the thought that those individuals who commit such gruesome crimes can escape retribution and that those who suffer such things is too much for me. If I can frame it in an eternal existence then it can make sense to me and I can hope for things to come. Otherwise I think I'd find the grief of the world too much. So hands up, I don't have all or maybe even some of the answers but that is where my faith takes over.

[headinhands]

Another flaw with the parent analogy is that we do not let our children have free will while we are teaching them. How does that tie in with god not affecting our free will?

[headinhands]

Could those people in heaven decide to make bad choices?

[curlew]

It's like listening to a woman in an abusive relationship "he's lovely really- it's my fault for winding him up. He's a wonderful father- he just gets a bit stressed sometimes. All we have to do is make sure we don't upset him and everything's fine. He loves us soooooo much, that's why he gets so angry with us"

[Nicknamegrief]

I believe so yes.
Satan/ Lucifer/ the devil, was once the son of the morning...

[Nicknamegrief]

If that was the case curlew then those who were 'righteous' would never suffer.

[Nicknamegrief]

Sorry head no analogy is perfect.

Although I do believe that if we haven't been taught right from wrong then we can not be held accountable for the things we do.

[headinhands]

So people in heaven have free will but only choose to do good, how come?

[headinhands]

If we can have free will in heaven but somehow only do good, why the Jeff wouldn't god have done that now and avoided all the agony and suffering?

[Nicknamegrief]

We only do good because heaven is for those who despite their circumstances choose to do good.

It is the reward. It is my belief that God will only reward those who have chosen to do good. They still do good because that is who they are. God has sent us to Earth to be tried, tested and proven. He gave us will so that we can prove ourselves good, wicked and so forth.

I also believe that we came to Earth to experience bad and good, so that we can learn the difference and make choices based on consequences rather than just being told what will happen. I think that we know what suffering is like because we know what pleasure and joy is like.