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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Philosophy/religion

The new pope

121 replies

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 13/03/2013 23:41

So this is the guy who is strongly against gay marriage and adoption and of whom the Argentine president said that the church under his rule in Argentina was reminiscent of the inquisition and the dark ages.

Is this really the kind of guy we want running the most powerful religious organisation in the world?

OP posts:

Report

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 13:51

It is indeed sacrilege Maggie and I hope they are made to face up to what they have done, both in this life and in the next.

The Church has been formed over hundreds of years by various contributors, some good, some not so good, but, as we've heard this morning, that formation continues, hopefully in the right direction.

Some people are better at discerning Christ's will than others.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 19/03/2013 14:36

"It's not clear to me why you link homophobia and pedophile priests, except that we all dislike them both!"

I didn't link them. You brought up the sex scandals, I distinctly said they were different to a homophobic leader preaching a homophobic message. That was the point I was making.

"Pedro the new Pope isn't 'homophobic' any more than he's 'divorcephobic' or 'adulterphobic'. The Church's rules on chastity apply to all Catholics and apply to people who are homosexual equally. ."

No they don't, you are suggesting that gay sex is ok in the Catholic Church as long as they are in a relationship? That's not the message that comes across. And besides, it's more than just sex, it's adoption as well. Telling a loving gay couple that they can't adopt a child is ludicrous and homophobic.

OP posts:

WhatKindofFool · 19/03/2013 14:36

Maggie Surely, you can find one positive thing? This lent, my children who go to a Catholic school have been asked to save pennies for "St Joseph's Penny" www.caritassalford.org.uk/appeals/st-josephs-penny which is a RC charity to help local people in need. Is that not one, maybe small, good thing?

I'm sure you can find something good if you try.

WhatKindofFool · 19/03/2013 14:41

No they don't, you are suggesting that gay sex is ok in the Catholic Church as long as they are in a relationship?

Pedro Nobody has suggested that. As hiddenhome said, all sex outside of marriage is forbidden.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 19/03/2013 14:42

This is a quote from a 2010 letter which the now Pope wrote regarding Argentina's vote on gay adoption: "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children, at stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts."

"Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God's plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a 'move' of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

OP posts:

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 14:45

and? Pedro The Church believes that children should have both parents - mother and father - to raise them. They are entitled to hold that belief.

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 14:49

The Church doesn't agree with IVF either. Is it 'fertilisationophobic'?

marjproops · 19/03/2013 16:58

Jesus, about adultery, to the poster that mentioned it...said 'your sins are forgiven''. yes. but read on. ''go and sin no more.''

Id rather have the church around than not have it. EVERY religion, EVERY culture has its good and bad.( would all this be discussed if it was the muslims/Krishna/Indian etc faiths?)

I think the reason the church gets slammed more than anything else is that people want to believe that SOMEONE somewhere is doing the right thing. and its supposed to be the church? (dont know if ive worded that right or making sense).

By all means everyone has a right to their opinions but please we're all supposed to be friends here, not slamming each others belief systems. can this be discussed more diplomatily?

As for the Bible being staid and 'not with the times', well, theres been rape/adultery/gang rape/murder/wars etc since the beginning of time, theres a gang rape story in the book of Genesis, so its absolutly with the times.

No, I dont agree with a lot of biblical/church policies but would anyone like Shakespearse writings to be modernised to 'street' talk (poor analogy but the only thing i can think of!!) yeh, innit, fierce mate, bruv.
Shakespeare is solid as is the Word.

HOpe that made sense and trying to be diplomatic!!

sieglinde · 19/03/2013 17:12

Pedro said the Holy Father had said in the past:

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children, at stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts."

"Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God's plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a 'move' of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

I can't see that this is homophobic as it stands. It's illiberal, certainly, and it's strongly worded, but it describes same sex marriage legislation and not gay people as inspired by the devil. I don't agree with it, and I find it a bit hysterical, but I don;t see that this is homophobic. Isn't he entitled to say that he sees marriage as between a man and a woman? As entitled as you are to disagree with him?

As for the people who can see no good in the church - do you have ANY IDEA how much charitable work is done by priests, friars, and nuns, and by RC laypeople? I specifically cite the work of nuns with the refugee crisis in Syria, because it's in the news now, but I could cite a hundred things. CAFOD is a huge lifeline for the poor everywhere. www.cafod.org.uk/. Other big players are

Food for the Poor
Catholic Relief Services
Caritas International
Sisters of Charity
Catholic Charities
Society of St Vincent de Paul, which does a lot for the poor in the UK.

There are huge numbers of others.

JakeBullet · 19/03/2013 17:16

I mentioned that one...yes hr did say "sin no more" but which of us can say we always get it right.? The key thing was forgiveness. ...and it might well have been a law to reduce the risk of illness. In which case Jesus would have had good reason to say "sin no more". We just don't know tbh. The keu for me os still forgiveness and love.

Loving the very knowledgeable folk on this thread btw

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:34

Re the new 'humble' Pope - it's gobsmackingly obvious that electing a pope in this mould is a not-so-subtle PR move by an increasingly desperate leadership.

Saying 'well at least he's not as bad as all those other Popes' doesn't really cut it if you're looking at it from the outside.

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 17:41

cynic

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:43

The Catholic Church is a) wealthy b) powerful c) unelected d) opinionated.

I think that deserves a little now and again.

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 17:46

Okay, but we will have to see what Pope Francis offers rather than just dismiss this as some sort of gimmick I, for one, hope that this does herald a better future. At least he seems to be addressing the wrongdoing that's been going on, this is what people want isn't it?

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:46

Oh and its teachings include 'stick with us and you'll get to heaven, don't and you'll rot in hell'. Lovely.

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 17:48

People are free to reject it of course.

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:48

Well he'd have to be pretty daft to be seen to be doing anything other than vigorously 'addressing the problems' - but let's hope some good does come of his leadership.

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:49

It's not a nice message, especially if you're a) young b) impressionable.

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 17:54

I have a DD who suffers with anxiety. She's petrified of all sorts of things in the world around her. I think it would be nothing short of evil to add 'rotting in hell' to her list of fears. Thank goodness she has avoided this sort of nonsense so far in her life - I can only hope she's allowed to continue to do so.

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 17:55

That's not what is taught and I think you know that

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 17:57

The 'nonsense' of which you speak includes: treating others are you would be treated yourself, justice, peace, striving to be virtuous, not telling lies, not stealing etc.

Of course, you're going to come back and tell me that you can be all these things whilst you're an atheist too

LizzyDay · 19/03/2013 18:01

Yes of course atheists can be nice

But what happens to them when they die?

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 18:04

I sometimes like to play Catholic Bashing Bingo on these threads.

So far we've had:

Paedophile Priests
Wicked Pope
Hell Fire and Brimstone
The Wealth of The Catholic Church
Homophobia
Believing is Nonsense
Religion damages children

I'm still waiting for:

Abortion
Imaginary Friend
We're deluded

Once we have those I win a Mars Bar

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 18:05

Oh, crap, it's Lent, I can't have one anyway

hiddenhome · 19/03/2013 18:13

What happens when we die? I personally have no idea, but I believe the Catholic Church still believes in Purgatory (haven't investigated this though), where you gradually atone for your sins before being reunited with God

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