Something I've seen quite a bit on Mumsnet is confusing me slightly

[GeorgianMumto5]

...I often read statements along the lines of, 'I'm an atheist because I there is no God,' and, 'I don't want my child to be taught about your fairy stories [religious teachings],' which is all fair enough but what's confusing me is, aren't these just people's opinions? One person can't provide definitive proof of the absence of a deity, anymore than another can provide definitive proof of the existence of a deity, surely? Or am I missing something?

This is a genuine query - I'm interested to know. I'm not trying to stir up arguments, although I'm happy to be argued with and told that I'm wrong.

As a person with a faith, I'd say it's all a matter of faith - either you believe it, or you don't. If I was without faith, I guess I'd say it's a matter of opinion. In any case, I don't get the absolute confidence people have that there is no God. I think there is, but I couldn't prove it and wouldn't think to tell another peson that I'm right on that topic and they're wrong. Where does all the certainty come from?

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

Holo: Yeah, right - Science can't investigate my imaginary friends because, well, they're imaginary. That's the equivalent of playing a game and going 'Waah, there's a Special New Rule that means I Always Win' and then wondering why the other kids are laughing at you.

[HolofernesesHead]

BigMouth, that's a lovely song. I'll have to Youtube it! It reminds me of all the people who say, 'I don't really pray, but...'

SGB - I don't see talking about God as a game.

[technodad]

No, I don't exactly equate them, what I am saying, is that it is very easy to get on the outrage wagon and misunderstand someone's sentiments. Also (and more to the point), it is easy for people to force their faith on others without thinking about the implications of their cute little phrases.

The phrase "bless you" can easily be understood to mean "I believe in god and I wish to impart my belief on you to protect you" (in a slightly patronising way). The phrase "there is no god, grow up" can easily be understood to mean "I don't believe in any god, and I want to help you to realise it" (in a very patronising way). They are not worlds apart in in fairness and I find the idea of being blessed by a religious group which such a horrendous history (and present) to be pretty offensive. The difference is, I never go round saying "there is no god, grow up" to random strangers, but random strangers feel free to say "bless you" to me all the time.

The phrase "I will pray for you" (which a close family member said to me just a couple of days) can easily be understood to mean "I don't care that you are an atheist, you are wrong and you need moral help", which will get short shrift from me!

The big thing is, that most atheists don't walk round their world constantly banging the drum, bumping into people saying randomly "there is not god, make the most of this life it is just compost afterwards". But religious people do, and some how think they have a god given right to show their badge. They think it is OK to assume that I am comforted by their belief when I am grieving and don't ever think of the implications of their actions in this regard. Hell, they even bang on the door trying to convert me (and force feed unproven nonsense stories to my children).

You will of course tell me that some atheists do bang the drum (e.g. Dawkins, Minchin, Cox). But whereas the Arch Bishop of Canterbury is publicised as a foundation of our society, the atheist equivalent people are often demonised by the religious Mafioso.

[HolofernesesHead]

A non-Christian member of my extended family is always going around saying 'Aw, bless him / her / you!' in a very cutesy way. Also my sis, a faithful Christian, left FB because of the people from her church only ever posted Bible verses and it made her feel worldly. So I share your pain, Techno.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I expect I find these phrases probably about as offensive as a religious person would a reply of "there is no god, grow up"

I agree that they could be offensive if directed to you in a PA manner, but this is not always the case. In contrast, telling someone to "grow up" is always an insult.

[technodad]

Yes. But you are not listening. I don't tell people to grow up. I don't even tell people I am atheist.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I am listening/reading.

I never said that you tell people to "grow up". I simply pointed out that I was shocked that you found a rather common phrase, used by atheists and Christians alike (particularly after sneezing) probably about as offensive as the insult "grow up".

[technodad]

Well it was the "would you like me to pray for you" one that is more offensive to me, you are right, I wasn't clear on my previous post.

However, the fact is, these phrases are use a huge amount from my experience and so it is the cumulative effect that takes it's toll, so after a while it is easy to become a little over sensitive to even "bless you".

[MrsMcCave]

Technodad, I'm sure that when people say they will pray for you they are not implying that you are morally wrong!

I believe in God because otherwise I'd have to believe in coincidence, and I'm way too cynical to do that.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

I still find it faintly surprising that educated, functional adults take any of this crap seriously, though. Well, the ones who are making a few quid out of it, or the ones who are aware of the usefulness of mythology in keeping others In Their Place (do as you're told or the imaginary friend will get you), I can understand their motives. But in otherwise sensible people it just seems a bit ridiculous.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Maybe those otherwise sensible people have experienced something you have not?

[happybubblebrain]

I would love to know what it is that makes the believers believe. Without one shred of evidence, what makes people so certain that God exists? Why would God hide from everyone? I would love to be convinced otherwise, but I don't think it is posssible to convince a non-believer without some evidence. Faith is a meaningless word to me and it makes idiots of people.

I think religion should be kept out of schools. I think it confuses young minds. It's a kind of arrogance to claim you know and understand about matters higher than yourself and to try and teach it. It just seems like a big pretence to me. I don't want fakery being taught to my child.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Faith is experiential.
I did not believe, then something happened and I began to question my disbelieving stance. This is what lead me to my faith.

I don't know why that makes me an idiot though.

[MurderOfGoths]

"But if I am pretty sure of one thing, it's that people who only believe in things they can measure (empiricism, rationalism, call it what you will) have a very impoverished way of thinking."

I don't agree at all.

You can have an impoverished way of thinking with or without faith.

As far as I'm concerned if your faith helps you and doesn't impact (negatively) on others then great. If it does impact others, you feel the need to impose it on others, or you are unable to separate belief from knowledge, then not great.

You can not say with certainty that God or whatever exists, whereas atheists/agnostics can say with certainty that no evidence has ever been produced. That gives them the certainty of knowledge.

Though atheists/agnostics cannot say with certainty that evidence will never be produced, the chances are slim. Science/logical thought is on their side.

Maybe they miss out on the feelings faith can give. Some of them may even feel some regret over it. In the same way that some with faith may regret not having science on their side. As long as both sides realise they are approaching the issue from very different directions, with very different motives, which will understandably give very different results.

Neither is exactly "wrong" in their views. While faith is obviously wrong from a scientific/logical viewpoint. Lack of faith may be seen as wrong from an emotional/intuitive standpoint.

I think the two can co-exist, as long as one doesn't try to impose it's will on the other. Sorry believers, but religion has the track record on this one. One of the main reasons that atheists are so vehement in their conviction. They've been sidelined for so long. And unfortunately, no matter how good the intentions of faith, organised religion is used more for bad than good.

And that brings me back to impoverished thinking. I'd say those who use their faith to hurt/manipulate others, they are the truly impoverished ones.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

It's far more impoverished thinking to insist that some Bronze Age mythological bullshit is true, particularly if you then go on to insist that other people take it seriously when doing so harms them and restricts their freedom. It's no accident that all the myth systems control what their adherents eat, who they associate with, etc etc. Again and again and again, powerful people have insisted that developments in human progress and the granting of rights to minorities should not be allowed... because their imaginary friend wouldn't like it.

As to believing in any old kind of woo-bollocks, whether that be the big-brand stuff such as Christianity or the less powerful, such as ghosts and horoscopes, because you 'experienced' something, a subjective experience which could be anything from indigestion to coincidence is not evidence.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

IMHO, believing that those different from you are inferior leads to impoverished thinking. This stance has been used by many religions to justify such things as wars and slavery.

Why some atheists wish to adopt a similar stance now continues to shock me.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

Some people's views are inferior to mine. I don't waste time tiptoeing 'respectfully' round the opinions of racists or MRA bucketheads even though I support their right to believe whatever crap they like. I'll still go up against them when they are exercising their beliefs in such a way as to do harm to others. Same goes for the superstitious - believe in all the rubbish you like, have as many imaginary friends as you can handle. But don't expect other people to take your beliefs seriously when they're ludicrous.

[SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR]

Or, to look at it another way:

If a person believes that (for example) women shouldn't go out alone at night because of rapists, then that's a bit silly, and wrong, but it's a belief the person is entitled to hold.

If a person believes that women shouldn't go out alone at night because of rapists and campaigns for it to be illegal for women to go out alone at night because of rapists, then that's a belief that's becoming a bit of a problem.

If that person tries to forcibly prevent a woman, or women, from going out alone at night because of rapists, despite the woman or women knowing that most rapes are not committed by strangers, etc etc, then that person's belief and behaviour are an unacceptable problem.

[sashh]

I think most atheists would say that they are 99% sure

I disagree, they would not be atheists.

There is no proof either way, however there is a lot of evidence for evoloution, the age of the earth, people not being possessed, etc etc.

[nooka]

People who are only 99% sure should probably define themselves as agnostics, but I'm not sure any of us non-believers really care enough to define our stance terribly accurately. I usually describe myself as an atheist, but when looking at definitions more closely am probably a bit of an anti-theist and rather more of an apatheist. Generally I think that the whole god thing is just utterly irrelevant to my life, but sometimes I more actively reject theist beliefs.

The thing is though that it's not really very debatable. Fundamentally you either have faith or you don't. My mother attempted to persuade me that you could be a Christian whilst not really believing any of it rationally (there is quite a tradition of doubting Christian philosophers apparently) but you know what I don't really want to believe in any of it. I don't see that faith is particularly life enriching and much of religion both in ritual and practice is to me really unappealing and at times disturbingly unpleasant.

Thinking about Christianity which I know most about having been brought up Catholic/CoE there sure is some interesting stuff in the Bible, but it's all so contradictory, and the God of Love thing just doesn't square with the smiting and other unpleasantness in the old testament. Then there is all the picking and choosing and politics as to was in and out of the different versions, the religious schisms and arguments, the pretty awful behaviours of the different churches and so on. Which means that if there is a Christian god it seems either he isn't actually terribly nice, or he isn't terribly effective, or he isn't terribly interested or people got everything wrong. None of which make me think 'sign me up to that please'.

On the believing in other stuff, having morals, a spiritual life etc etc all of which get trotted out every now and then, well I have as much or as little of those as the next person really. We live in a beautiful world, I am aware I am very fortunate. I try and be nice to other people and expect that generally they will be nice to me, and this is my general experience. I develop views and opinions generally based on my experience. People with faith tend to think all the same types of things as me just with an added extra. As I have no god shaped hole in my life I feel no need for that extra. When I 'lost' my faith as a teenager I didn't feel any loss, except perhaps for the niggling feelings of guilt that being a Catholic seems to require.

[HecatePropylaea]

What I don't understand is why people have to mock others because they have a different belief.

fair enough, disagree. Fair enough, think it's a load of bull, but there's no need to sneer and mock someone. I hate that.

I also hate it when people try to shove their religion down other people's throats.

I just wish people could accept and respect other people's views without getting hysterical about it, taking an opposing view as a personal insult or openly sneering.

[msrisotto]

Atheist means to be without belief so quantifying how sure atheists are is a bit nonsensical. However, most atheists when pushed would say they are agnostic atheists, they are without belief but accept we cannot be 100% sure, being unable to prove a negative etc