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Pedants' corner
Original poster

use of apostrophe with word ending in s

74 replies

pointydog · 29/08/2008 22:43

tell me, tell me, tell me!

I was told today I was wrong and I am most upset.

If you were writing about a garden belomging to an octopus (do not question), would you write

an octopus's garden
an octopus' garden

is one right or are both right?

OP posts:
Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:23

hmm, quandary, ok. What does King;s english say? (Fat tony prob has the book title wrong too)

OP posts:
Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:23

1922 - that sounds about the size of it.

  1. sheesh
OP posts:
bettythebuilder · 29/08/2008 23:25

oh goody, a thread with clever people who can help me...

If a business called Chiggs produces a product called a Wheel would lots of them be Chiggs' Wheels, Chiggs's Wheels or just Chiggs Wheels?

Squiggly · 29/08/2008 23:26

Message withdrawn

Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:26

chiggs' wheels

OP posts:
thumbwitch · 29/08/2008 23:27

or even Chiggs's Wheels, if we're going for the modern version

Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:27

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if king's said to drop the final s. Some people nee to drag themselves out of 1922 though and that is what I should say to fat tony et al on Monday.

How to make yourself popular in teh new workplace

OP posts:
edam · 29/08/2008 23:31

I think he's confused about grammar and about his reference books. If he thinks you should be using the 1922 edition of The King's English rather than more up to date works then he's an idiot.

The only 'King's Grammar' that I know was the one Henry VIII (and his son Edward VI) ordered to be used in all grammar schools. By someone called Lily, IIRC. If your boss is seriously expecting you to refer to a 16th century style book you are in REAL trouble.

Fowler (and Ernest Gowers who took over later IIRC) is GOD. His word is law. Not least because he recognised that things had moved on a bit from 1922 - he didn't issue one book and leave it at that.

(I am a journalist and have been an editor and sub-editor. Unless your boss is also a sub who wants to argue his case in detail, you are right and he is wrong, wrong and thrice wrong.)

bettythebuilder · 29/08/2008 23:33

erm- so Chiggs' wheels to be traditional, and chiggs's wheels to be trendy?

Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:34

Fat tony and my boss are tow separate people, for the record. My boss is ok, but he was mistaken and possibly misguided by others on this occasion.

I wanna punk fat tony, though.

OP posts:
edam · 29/08/2008 23:36

ooh, there's a newer edition of Fowlers than in my first link pedant porn

Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:36

to tell you teh truth, betty, chiggs is such a rubbish name I would not use it in the name of the biscuit at all.

I mean Golden Wheels or Whizz Wheels or anything would sound better than Chiggs' or Chiggs's.

OP posts:
Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:37

One good thing - that version is supplied by amazon

bad thing - it gets a 2 star review, edam!

OP posts:
bettythebuilder · 29/08/2008 23:39

it's not a biscuit! totally non edible

As for fat Tony, whack him over the head with an extra large grammar book

Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:40

oh god - have just re-read. Why on earth did I think you weret alking about biscuits?!

I am mortified

OP posts:
Original poster
pointydog · 29/08/2008 23:40

Is it a wheel or what?

OP posts:
bettythebuilder · 29/08/2008 23:41

maybe you're hungry

I think about chocolate a lot...

ravenAK · 29/08/2008 23:42

Proper names get a 's, eg. James's

Unless transliterated from Hebrew (or other languages with names ending in -s, eg. Greek) in which case they don't, because the Hebrew genitive case is different anyway. So that's Moses' & Jesus' & Oedipus' etc...

(The above may be total bollocks btw. Came up in a discussion elsewhere about Biblical/Classical names & I'm not entirely convinced! )

Would probably still go for s' with non-proper nouns eg. octopus' garden, but agree both are correct.

Squiggly · 29/08/2008 23:42

Message withdrawn

edam · 29/08/2008 23:42

yeah, I've read the review now, looks as if Burchfield has completely rewritten it and changed the very nature of the book. Don't think I'll bother.

Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge is worth having as well, by the way.

bettythebuilder · 29/08/2008 23:44

I think my head just exploded.

My, but grammar is complicated.

overthehill · 29/08/2008 23:47

I may be wrong, but I thought that the word finished with an apostrophe if it was a plural eg "the boys' rollerblades" ie the rollerblades of the boys, whereas if the word is singular but just happens to end in s eg James, it would need an 's in order to add an extra syllable ("Jamesis") - if that makes sense. I know what I mean, at least - and I've not consulted Lynne Truss or anyone!

Squiggly · 29/08/2008 23:48

Message withdrawn

Squiggly · 29/08/2008 23:50

Message withdrawn

edam · 29/08/2008 23:50

Oh, it's a very sad story about HW and FG Fowler. They were brothers. FG died in WW1 (not actually in battle, I think).

Anyway, have dug out my copy to give you a flavour of the book. The thing about Fowler is that he was witty in an erudite yet intelligible to mere mortals way. If you find the quote below amusing, we'll make a pedant of you yet!

"Spilt infinitives: The English-speaking world may be divided into (1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish."