use of apostrophe with word ending in s

[pointydog]

tell me, tell me, tell me!

I was told today I was wrong and I am most upset.

If you were writing about a garden belomging to an octopus (do not question), would you write

an octopus's garden
an octopus' garden

is one right or are both right?

[tearinghairout]

Which none of us is.
Are.

[tearinghairout]

(Not saying that's a typo.) I'm just being naughty... LT has set herself up as perfect, imo.

[tearinghairout]

Have just read thumbwitch's link here where Lynne Truss (towards the end) says "There are quite a number of literate children out there..."
Shouldn't it be "There is ... a number..."

Golly, LT must lie awake at night worrying about typos in her articles.

[Squiggly]

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[policywonk]

Not quite squiggly - it's all about the 'iz' sound. Well it is in my world, anyway. So I'd say 'Jesus's', for instance.



I should say that I have Fowler but frequently find him incomprehensible, so I tend to stick to Judith Butcher.

[Squiggly]

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[policywonk]

I thought the rule was as follows: it's James's/Jones's, but Moses' - because Moses ends in an 'iz' sound, so 'Moses's' would be pronounced 'Mosiziz', which would be foolish.

Just wanted to contribute as I believe pointy might be in the running for one of the longest-ever Pedants' Corner threads.

[Squiggly]

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[edam]

That illustrates the saying about a little learning being a dangerous thing quite neatly.

I wouldn't assume I was right or wrong about some concept in genetics just because I did biology at school several decades ago. They over-simplified genetics, teaching us two brown-eyed people can't have a blue-eyed child. Which is just wrong, they can.

Same thing applies with English - just because we've all been taught to read and write, doesn't make us experts on grammar.

[Pan]

And see "New Year's Day". See how many times people miss the apostrophe!! It's the end of civilisation....

[Helsbels4]

I was always taught at school that words ending in an "s" had an apostrophe after and not another "s" and I HATE, HATE, HATE it when people do add the extra "s". I don't care if it's modern and trendy - I will not bow down to this!!!

[edam]

oh, all right, shade then!

[pointydog]

Thank you, pedants. I may not wholly approve of you but you have been most informative.

I cannot say I found Fowler's quote 'amusing', edam, but it had some interest value. Maybe one day my sense of humour will take a pedantic turn.

If all else fails next week, I will trot out the Beatles lyric.

[thumbwitch]

SHADE woman! In the SHADE!

[edam]

I'd like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus's garden in the sun

(The Beatles)

[edam]

No, we are just helping pointy to make fun of her idiot boss. (And I'm enjoying the company of good old HW Fowler.)

Our motives are entirely pure!

[Squiggly]

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[Squiggly]

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[Igotwheels]

Jesus' bread.

He is the only one with an apostophe following the s and no extra s.

Other than this names with lots of s or zs within them also have the s', e.g. Mr Fibs' dog.

[thumbwitch]

ah yes edam - but surely that is why this particular thread exists, so that we can exercise our "superior knowledge" safely in the company of our equals?

[edam]

A remark we pedants should bear in mind:

"French Words:
Display of superior knowledge is as great a vulgarity as display of superior wealth ? greater indeed, inasmuch as knowledge should tend more definitely than wealth towards discretion and good manners."

[Squiggly]

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[edam]

(The point being, he took the piss in a scholarly Edwardian way out of people who are overly pedantic or, worse, pedantic but ignorant.)

[ravenAK]

You do elide the last bit of octopus more anyway, I think, because the last vowel sound is a stressed 'u'.

So on the 'ease of pronunciation' rule it might fit with Julius rather than James so not need another s - it's not creating another defined syllable.

[edam]

Oh, it's a very sad story about HW and FG Fowler. They were brothers. FG died in WW1 (not actually in battle, I think).

Anyway, have dug out my copy to give you a flavour of the book. The thing about Fowler is that he was witty in an erudite yet intelligible to mere mortals way. If you find the quote below amusing, we'll make a pedant of you yet!

"Spilt infinitives: The English-speaking world may be divided into (1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish."