So those of you who don't lie to your children...

[LynetteScavo]

..yes you; the parents who tell their children Father Christmas doesn't exist, how far does this truth telling go?

Do you tell them you really don't want to play game of Junior Monopoly for example. Or, like me would you smile and lie saying "Of course dear, I'd love to."

[nightingale452]

I find it really difficult to lie to my children, even about things like Father Christmas and the tooth fairy (who we still believe in). It's not helped by DD1's investigative attitude - when she lost her first tooth she insisted on leaving a note for the tooth fairy asking for a picture and various bits of personal information, DH was on the internet for hours looking for a convincing picture of a fairy to print out and we had to type a reply in miniature script.

Although I know it's all part of the magic of childhood, a large part of me feels really uncomfortable that my children trust me implicitly and I'm lying to them.

[Fennel]

I don't tell my children FC is a lie. or the tooth fairy. Though my parents did, my father is really very literal about truth (much more than me ) and really I don't think it spoilt our childhood, we still enjoyed Christmas.

We talk in terms of stories, games, imagination, and if the dc talk about FC as real we don't turn round and say "oh no he isn't", but if they ask us directly I might say "what do you think? Does it seem likely? Does it fit with other things you know about the world?"
Mine tend to ask about FC, TF etc at some points and not at others, but if they feel ready to ask such a question I feel they are ready to think about the possible answers.

[edam]

Mind you, he's already worked out that I haven't always told him the literal truth - Mummies having eyes in the back of their head stopped working about three years ago, sadly.

[edam]

Well yes, of course I teach ds to question received wisdom and authority. Had to explain who Nelson Mandela was at age 3 which was rather tricky (he overheard 'Free Nelson Mandela' on the radio and asked) and we've also done Burma and generally standing up for what you believe (and that standing up might sometimes be uncomfortable and difficult).

But stories and myth are jolly important in human culture. Every culture across history and geography tells stories. To take just one example, Cinderella is pretty darn universal, although I suppose there might be some cultures where it doesn't apply.

A distressingly puritan literal minded approach to fable ignores things that are crucial to human beings. IMO. I hate this idea that FC is 'a lie' - no, he's a story or a myth if you prefer. When ds is old enough, I'll explain that and isn't it nice that (most) adults across the world keep the magic going for little children? We create our own magic - one of the best aspects of human nature, IMO.

[womblingfree]

I'm with the PinkTulips school of some honesty and lying by omission!

[BonsoirAnna]

It's very easy to demonstrate concepts such as justice or freedom to children in a material way - cutting a cake into equal shares is very important to most children as a material enactment of justice; shutting children in their room and hence depriving them of their freedom to join in with the rest of the family as punishment for small misdemeanours deprives them momentarily of some freedoms.

We then move on and learn about larger, less easily materialised concepts of justice and freedom and other human values.

I don't think FC has anything to do with that at all.

[Fennel]

hmm. I'm not going to agree with TP on this. My definition of belief or existence would be different. Things don't "exist" because you believe in them.

And I wouldn't teach children to believe in abstract concepts, I'd teach them to question and consider the nature of the abstract concepts - their existence in the real world, their utility as concepts, etc.

I'd put the teaching of critical enquiry above the teaching of belief any time. Philosophy over RE, basically.

[whyme2]

Children develop their own pretend worlds without our help. This is one reason I don't like the fc thing. It is someone else's idea of fun pushed on my dc. My children are great at imagining whole new worlds without any help from me.

I think you learn about belief from experience. "do my parents love me?" yes because they consistently do xyz. It is about 'seeing' a concept by which you can then apply your reasoning to other things such as justice.

[Hando]

David Tennant? Seriously! Ewww! Christopher Eccleston I think you mean!

We don't do the "fairies" in the garden thing as I think it would confuse dd. She naturally enquires into everything, likes to know the details of everything, how things work, feel, why they work, what they do etc.

If I told her fairies were real then how do I explain they are real but monsters and ghosts are not. Friendly fairies and elfs are real but trolls and goblins are make believe. It would make it afr too confusing for me to handle.

[edam]

Sheesh, that's the whole point, Fennel, he's saying they do exist but do so because we believe in them, not because we can see or touch them. Hence we need to teach children about belief.

[edam]

no, whyme, it builds the muscles you require later for believing in big abstract concepts. Just as children learn how to interact with other people, starting from hitting another toddler over the head because you want the toy they have and moving up to negotiating with your boss for a pay rise, so they need to learn about belief and exercise the mental muscles required for belief.

You don't wake up one day ready to read Shakespeare. You have to learn c-a-t spells cat first. Neither do you wake up one day understanding justice or human rights.

[whyme2]

sorry the world around us

[Fennel]

You can see why Terry Pratchett is so very popular with physics graduates, if he's assuming that anything which can't be reduced to physical mattter doesn't exist, or is a "lie". (DP, a physicist, is a big fan of TP, as are most of his friends)

If you see justics and freedome as social or cultural constructs you don't need to consider their atomic structure. it's immaterial.

[whyme2]

Believing in father christmas does not give you an insight into truth and justice.

We live our lives relying on the worl around us to keep doing the same - our children believe we love them etc. It is this kind of belief which shores us up for the bigger concepts.

[edam]

whyme at TP's best works being fantasy.

[edam]

Ooh you are being terribly literal, Fennel. As TP says, show me one atom of justice...

Childhood beliefs such as FC are important so that you can go on to believe in abstract concepts such as truth or justice or mercy. (But that's a far more boring way of putting it, I prefer Pratchett's version.)

[feralgirl]

My grandad was King Liar. When I was 7 he told me that the stains in the bottom of his wicker basket were blood from severed limbs. He was a doctor so I totally believed him.

Can't wait to do similar to DS once he's old enough...

[whyme2]

I think relying on Terry Pratchett as a model for child rearing is slightly foolish, after all his best works are total fantasy.

I do my best not to lie to my children, we don't beleive in father Christmas but it is okay for others. I just can't bring myself to set them up for a disappointment.

However you can still be kind with the truth.

[Fennel]

Freedom and Justice are not lies, in some systems of ethics they are moral codes, if we live as though we value these things then life in general is better/happier for us and those around us.

You don't have to see them as existing out "there" somewhere, nor as lies, to find them useful concepts.

[Bleatblurt]

Who is Jon Pertwee? [far too young to have seen any of the original Dr Whos]

[edam]

Terry Pratchett's wonderful explanation of the importance of lying to children, a conversation between Death and his grand-daughter, Susan.

Death: Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.

Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?

Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies.

Susan: So we can believe the big ones?

Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing.

Susan: They're not the same at all.

Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged.

-- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

[dogonpoints]

where are these people who don't lie to their children?

[DidEinsteinsMum]

I dont lie to ds as he would be destroyed if he found out. he is literal very literal and didnt believe is father christmas....

...until i put my foot in it. Cue quick lesson in belief being personal and just because you believe on thing and someone else believes something else doesnt make you wrong just have different opinion.

Ds gets comments like. No darling i didnt find that joke funny, you have a rather interesting sense of humour and its different to mine or I'm sorry i didnt understand that joke, Can you explain it?

My biggest problem is literality:
I am so hungry i could eat a horse caused hysterics cos he thought i was actually intending to supply a horse for tea. Bless.

[curiositykilled]

I tell the truth on the whole. I don't see the point in telling children little twee white lies or untruths. If you don't want to do something telling them so and accepting a compromise helps them to understand how to compromise when they don't want to do something and why it is necessary.

I don't think it is a parent's job to protect their children from the world. It is a parent's job to help the child interpret the world.

My ds isn't a big fan of make believe but my dd is. I am the same with both of them, they don't get any lies but dd likes to play make believe games, knowing that something is not real. I think that is nice, she enjoys it. My sister, who likes the made up stuff, often says things like "Oh, DS you like Dr Who don't you? Would you like to be the doctor when you grow up?" he says "I do like the doctor auntie Liz but he is not real you know, just a story?"

DD will play with her though. Basically I think equpping them with the knowledge that certain things are and aren't real doesn't stop them enjoying the make believe game. I also think the make believe game is often more for the adult's benefit than the child's.

[edam]

Terry Pratchett says we teach children to believe in the little lies, like FC and the tooth fairy, so that they can learn to believe. It's practice for believing the big lies, like justice and freedom.

His point being, I think, that justice and freedom are concepts - you can't see them or point to them or hold them in your hand. You need belief.

(Only he put it much better than that of course, will google when ds is in bed.)