I am the worst mum in the world - just sent ds2-2y 4mo to bed hungry

[BlueSmarties]

I'm not fussy about food, never try to force feed or anything like that. we just have one rule in this house. If you don't eat your dinner there isn't anything else.

So ds1 [4] sat in front of his dinner sulking for approx 10 mins then tucked in heartily and had his after dinner treat.

ds2 [2] not interested even with gentle persuasion. So he went up for his bath,no fuss or anything. Came downstairs and said he was hungry but still wouldn't eat his dinner. I relented and gave him a banana but once he started asking for biscuits it was time for bed.

I feel like such a b1tch. he's never seen it all the way through to bed time before. Last time he did this was at my mum's and he sat and watched everyone eat an ice cream but he didn't get one coz not eating dinner - went up for his bath then came down and ate his v.cold roast dinner - then had an ice cream. Thought he'd learnt his lesson then.

Anyone else out there that mean. Only want to hear from those that are - not anyone looking to bash me and make me feel worse than i do already.

[Greensleeves]

there's a difference between it being so late that the issue never arises, and it being a House Rule though. Your post implied the latter. If your child asked for an apple or a piece of toast an hour after dinner, would you refuse? If so, I don't understand why and I think the psychological message delivered to the child is dodgy at best.

[K999]

Nice posts Greesleaves.

[fishie]

it is a fear for some people, that their children are saveages. dh has it, quite mad about ds using cutlery properly and sitting for whole meal etc. he is 4 ffs.

[Greensleeves]

cheers K999!

[Themasterandmargaritas]

Tbh I have never really thought about it before because they have never asked. I suppose as they get older I probably would.

[georgimama]

I'm with Greensleeves too. Ds (2.4) is a picky eater, like DH's family (but not strangely, DH - he's a gannet like me). DS could quite genuinely be not hungry when I offer him tea at 5 but famished an hour later. He's far too young to try to fit his appetites to a timescale. If he's hungry he eats. If he isn't, he doesn't.

Making a hard and fast rule about this is a hiding to nothing.

[Themasterandmargaritas]

At the end of the day, it really depends on the child, doesn't it? Mine all eat well at mealtimes and I am lucky. They also have snacks during the day. The structure of mealtimes taken at the table and not food eaten on the go and consistency has worked for them and for me.

[PigeonPie]

Don't feel bad BlueSmarties. He hasn't gone to bed hungry and as others have said, if he'd been hungry, he'd have eaten fruit. He might be coming down with something and just not be hungry. Tomorrow is another day

[TrinityRhinoIsInDetention]

greensleeves talks alot of sense

hpw goes the the yackky snot.bloody vomit thing??
I hope you are mending very quickly, I have been worried

[Doobydoo]

OP.Try not to be so hard on yorself.He will and I think does understand.My son is the same age.And if food not eaten then it is a yog and fruit.I think your ds is,quite naturally,seing if you will give in.
I have an older son who eats appalling and I am very different with my ds2 re food.
Don't Worry so much....maybe supper of something you think suitable if it happens again.

[limonchik]

Personally, I don't do pudding as a treat for eating your dinner - food shouldn't be a reward or punishment.

But, I don't think you did anything wrong here and I would have done exactly the same. Either eat your dinner, or have milk and a banana, or wait for breakfast. Perfectly reasonable.

He didn't go to bed hungry, if he was hungry he'd have eaten dinner or fruit, not held out for biscuits.

[Greensleeves]

Bluesmarties, I just came back to say I didn't mean to make you feel bad .

I posted in response to the issue being raised more widely on the thread, about children and eating generally and mealtimes/snacking etc. In your case I think you don't need to worry, you made sure he wasn't hungry, gave him a banana etc. He didn't go to bed begging for food and being told "nothing for you until breakfast".

I was speaking a bit too hypothetically rather than just answering the thread title

[oneopinionatedmother]

hmm - i don't believe in the internal 'full' compass per se - though granted the body does have 'full' triggers those are (like many behaviour controls) not solely dependant on the physical fact of having eaten enough.

didn't you see that study where they gave a bunch of kids a moderate meal, and weighed the leftovers, then gave them a larger meal, and got the same weight of leftovers?

ie, kids will eat what is given, and not obey the 'satiety' trigger from the brain only. This can also be affected by happiness-level (as c4 receptor in brain is the serotonin gate that triggers full - feeling full depends on a serotonin flow) and many other factors. Ie you think the trigger is enough of a guide - we need habit and mental state as a guide also, especially as-

isn't the human animal programmed to gorge whilst food is there in case it isn't tomorrow?

so unlimited snacking potential = snacking as learned behaviour rather than result of mental trigger?

interesting topic, though not strictly related to OP.

[Greensleeves]

I wonder how the eating of the children in that trial had been managed to date though? Were they all allowed to regulate their own eating and appetite from weaning until the trial? If not then your evidence may be illustrating the converse of the point you are trying to make.

I don'[t think human beings are hard-wired to binge in case there is no food later - that ancient instinct infterfaces with many others and effects of recent evolution and modern conditioning.

The way to activate the "stuff yourself, you might be hungry later" mechanism you allude to is to feed children at rigidly set times and outlaw supplementary snacking.

[jemart]

Yep - I am also this mean.
Have picky 2 year old dd who has gone to bed without really eating much on several occaisions.
I do fret about it though and try to atleast get some milk and toast down her.

[Greensleeves]

but it's not mean if you are giving her milk and toast so she doesn't go to bed hungry!

I think there are two very different arguments here.

[LadyHooHa]

Smarties - I don't think you are using food as a punishment (contrary to what other people have said), and I think a banana was a fair deal in the circs. If he'd been hungry, he would have eaten his dinner. I say good on you for sticking to your guns. Knowing where he stands with you will pay off in all sorts of ways that are not connected to food!

I think the problem with snacking, Greensleeves, is that it's not a great habit for children to get into. Friends' children snack pretty much non-stop, then won't eat meals. This might not matter when they're five, but it will matter more when they're 15 and have got into the snacking habit (which is likely to be a constant stream of junk by then).

[LadyHooHa]

Greensleeves - you ask: If your child asked for an apple or a piece of toast an hour after dinner, would you refuse?

Well, yes as we have dinner late!

But if we didn't, then it would depend on whether they'd eaten their dinner or not. If they'd eaten everything and were still hungry an hour later, then yes. If they'd left their meal and then came asking for toast/an apple an hour later, then no. Though that may be because my children would eat bread and fruit until they burst, given half a chance!

[Greensleeves]

That's an interesting insight into the mindset in play here. Of course they wouldn't eat bread and fruit until they burst. And bread and fruit are perfectly good foods.

I think it's strange that you would send a child to bed hungry, having asked for a reasonable snack (apple, bread etc) just on principle. Do you deny yourself food when you're hungry too?

[oneopinionatedmother]

I wonder how the eating of the children in that trial had been managed to date though? Were they all allowed to regulate their own eating and appetite from weaning until the trial? If not then your evidence may be illustrating the converse of the point you are trying to make.

the point was the trigger is not enough. though yes, if those kids were conditioned into eating all in front of them that would be a factor, conversely, they didn't magically ting 'full' (Tom and jerry style) and stop.

it wasn't a scientific trial to be fair - i saw it on tv though the kids were told to leave whatever they didn't want.

The way to activate the "stuff yourself, you might be hungry later" mechanism you allude to is to feed children at rigidly set times and outlaw supplementary snacking.

but isn't snacking habit-forming also? can you not equally snack when you don't need to?? lots of current thinking in diet points to it being important to acknowledge you have eaten (ie sit down, go through a ritual etc) so that your brain is content that you have in fact eaten properly.

isn't it easier to work to a pattern of meals (i don't believ in three meals for grown adult either - i get by fine on 1.5small wheras DH did well on 2 large meals)
just to keep track of it all (once you have found the meal pattern that works for you?)

a close friend of mine went through hell with her food addiction and it made me really conscious of how difficult knowing how much food is enough can be. (she went to foodies anonymous and used a diet that involved weighing everything to the gram!)

her childhood regime was large meals plus snacks - though also i think other psychological factors were at play to be fair.

of course, there are people out there that get away with snacking endlessly and eating meals also, but that's metabolism for you.

[MilaMae]

Blue smarties I don't think you're the worst mum in the world,far from it.We have the same rule as you with the only difference being we started it when the dc were 3.

I cook the same for all of us as I don't run a cafe. My dc are now 5,5 and 4. If they don't eat their tea(which are mostly meals I know appeal to them)they don't get more food. Sorry I don't have the money to throw good food away only to replace it with snacks.

I have 2 fab eaters and 1 fussy eater who is smart enough to know he could just not eat his tea every night in order to get a snack he does like.

The fussy eater used to go to bed hungry most nights often still does and misses out on desserts we all eat frequently. I don't feel a pang of guilt. If he's hungry he'll eat and often does when he realises actually he is hungry. He has a huge breakfast to make up for it,is in the peak of health and heavier than his twin who eats everything.

Often the fussy eater will just eat his chicken out of the roast and reject everything else(roast potatoes,stuffing veg of his choice) well sorry that isn't acceptable and he can't expect anything else when there is perfectly good food in front of him. I never make an issue of it and would never force any of them to eat when they didn't want to. It's their choice but they aint getting anything else. I serve dessets for those of us who are still hungry after the 1st course,if the 1st course is still sat in front of you you aren't hungry.

I can't stand seeing parents cajole,coax,rage,threat over food. If they don't want it they don't want it. If they choose to go to bed hungry that is their choice and something they are entitled to make.

Have to say my fussy eater is slowly(very slowly) but surely getting better, we never have upsets about it(never did really) he just accepts it and is starting to eat half of his tea most nights.

I think your rule is good but your ds 2 is probably still a little too young,they are naturally picky at this stage. I've no idea how you could deal with it fairly though as your 4 year old will understandably get riled if he has to stick to the rule and his brother doesn't. My youngest is my best eater so it was never an issue.

[oneopinionatedmother]

That's an interesting insight into the mindset in play here. Of course they wouldn't eat bread and fruit until they burst.

wouldn't they (or at least, until very full?)

kids will overeat. we used to supervise mealtimes in school - some kids would just keep on coming back for more after having maybe twice an adult portion. We started refusing those kids that got too large as they obviously didn't need it.

other kids would sit over their still-full rice bowl telling you they weren't hungry. Then eat the fruit on offer after the meal.

i would also go to bed 'hungry' myself. That urge to snack isn't necessarily to do with a physical need.

[FabBakerGirlIsBack]

I think children are much better at regulating their food intake. They eat when they are hungry and no by the clock. Making them eat some more when they have said they have had enough is over riding their natural instinct to stop eating once they feel full.

I have major food issues and try really hard not to make food an issue with my children.

[HappyMummyOfOne]

I was made to eat food I didnt like when I was younger and grew to hate mealtimes. Luckily I have no lasting food issues.

I dont expect DS to eat foods he doesnt like or to clear his plate if he is already full. I tend to cook foods I know he likes and sometimes it will be different to our meal.

I wouldnt eat something I dont like and dont intend to go down that path with DS as I know what its like from past experience.