Why do we want our young kids to be so "independent"???

[mamadadawahwah]

Was reading another thread about breastfeeding being questioned as making babies clingy. We all know this is a myth, but got to thinking, "why do some of us, and society place so much value on our kids being independent, self sufficient and self reliant. I want my son to have self esteem, but I see people who are worried about toddlers being too "attached", etc.

What do we gain by fostering early independence? I dont want my son to be independent, he's only two and I hope not to start thinking about that until he leaves home! Now he is only a baby, and he needs his mommy and daddy.

I just think if we worry about this issue too early we might inadvertently transfer neurosis onto our kids and threaten the attachment they have to us.

Remember the AbFab series, the one where the friend comes to visit with the baby in tow, and uses flash cards on the baby, saying "momma"? Why do we want our kids to grow up and leave us so early? There is already enough out there in society, i think, to take our kids away from us, without our input.

I dont want a "milk toast" for a son, and i do want him to be self sufficient when he grows up, he has to be in this world. But, worrying about it at toddlers age is ludicrous. Feeling safe and secure at home and knowing parents are always there is the best road to start on in becoming independent imho.

[mamadadawahwah]

Ionesmum, I KNOW, I mean what GIVES with the tart look for 8 year olds???? The hair, the boots, the skimpy tops and skirts. My mom wouldnt even let me have barbies when i was a kid, as she felt they were too objectifying of women and now I look back and really see her point. That was in the 60's (mom pretty astute). Young girls are singing the words to songs by Britney, etc which are so laced with sex, and their parents just dont seem to mind, or notice. I dont know whose fault that is, is it the clothes manufacturers and media or is it the parents?

I have a son and he is NOT going to getting his head shaved ala butch style, is NOT going to wear sports track gear ever (at least not in my house) and is NOT going to wear running shoes. I do see 6 month old babes wearing football outfits complete with the stripes and tiny shoes which must hurt their feet. My little guy still wears a sleepsuit during the day.

Wee girl next door is only four and has a boob tube which she wears in winter!!! What gives?

[mamadadawahwah]

Nightowl, why should you feel guilty about going back to work. Hope you dont think this thread was started to talk about guilty parents who work, it wasnt at all. Its just, the way society is today, "independence" is pushed pushed pushed. LIke when a little tyke falls down and you hear, oh you are all right, you are a big boy. First off, that comment doesnt have any empathy for boys pain and dosent allow him to express any pain or feelings. Its more for the benefit of the comment maker than the child.

No No No, what i am saying is that society is geared to take our kids off of us at such an early age and make them "independent" but independent of what??? I ask. Why should my son have to start school at 4 1/2? when i didnt go till i was 6 1/2? Why does the state push for single moms to go out and get a job when the most important job there is in my opinion is making sure our kids are ok and safe and loved?? Why? Cause the sooner our kids get out and get socialised and get into the "treadmill" the sooner they start to work, and make the financial wheels turn, the sooner they make a "contribution" to society, i.e. make money. Thats what its really about.

Its considered self indulgent, almost, to stay home on purpose with our kids and raise them ourselves. To me, its the most wonderful opportunity i will ever have, and the HARDEST job in the world. Working would be far easier!

But what would working give me? I dont know that working outside the home would bring me any real benefit and in my situation, I would miss my child terribly. Everyone is different, but i dont think ANYONE can look after my son like I can. They probably could, but i will never believe it. He needs his mom.

[mamadadawahwah]

I should add, I know working is a necessity today. If you dont work, you dont eat. Life is far from easy for many many moms. I am in a very fortunate position, at least for now, to not have to work. My mom had to work since I was a baby and I know she would have liked nothing better than the opportunity to stay home with me but financially just could not do it. I am immensely proud of her and what she did to raise me. I hope this dosent sound patronising, I am in awe of mums who work. I dont know how they handle it all. They deserve all the help and support. but I also think they deserve so much admiration because it is often far from easy and sometimes nigh impossible.

[SenoraPostrophe]

I really have to disagree mmddww.

Some kids are naturally more independent than others - mine are although ds can be quite clingy when he wants to be. Both are well attached to me. Some people on this thread seem to see "clingy" as an insult - it isn't, it's an observation.

Also some babies can hold their own bottle at 5 months - don't see what's wrong with encouraging them to do so.

I do agree about dressing up young girls in inappropriate clothes though, but that's about peer pressure and giving in to them - I don't think it's about pushing them away.

[golds]

I think its all about balance really, I think there is a difference between encouraging your child to do simple things on there own and pushing them too fast beyond there natual capabilities.

I didn't like it when people used to say, isn't he/she crawing yet, sitting up yet, reading yet etc... children develop pretty much at there own pace when they are ready.

My ds (5) is more 'clingy' than my dd (7) but there personailities are different. One thing that did make me pleased is that on there first day at school, they were both excited about meeting new friends/teachers and were very happy to leave me at the door. My dd now walks the last 30 yards to school on her own (I am 20 paces behind her taking ds, so I can see her clearly).

They both know I am there completely for them, but both of them have a good level of independance. My ds always says at school he doesn't miss me because he is having too much fun.

[Bonkerz]

I am actually really proud that i have given my ds (4) self esteem and independance. He is a very sociable child and very competant. He can walk in a room and not be shy and can dress himself etc. He is starting to make his own breakfast and can prepare a sandwich etc for himself. I like to think that i am giving him the necessary skills to survive in the world and i cant be with him 24 hours a day can i! Also as a childminder i like to encourage my mindees to do things for themsleves and not to rely on me all the time.

[Cam]

My dd2 is 8 and likes to choose her own clothes. I do subtly steer her towards the less tarty shops and she wears a mix of high street designer with Boden chucked in as well as bits I buy in France or Italy on holiday. Then she choose what she wears on a daily basis (except school uniform, obviously).Even though we spend significant amounts of time in museums, art galleries, at the ballet and indulging in other cultural pursuits, popular culture does not pass her by. She still knows all the words to Britney etc, its completely unavoidable in normal life. The important thing for me is that she knows the difference between classical music and pop songs.

[Tortington]

so since the break up of communities in the thatcher years, society has changed in part to reflect the changing child care role. providing childcare institutions for babies months old, whereas before family members may have took this role, even further back in history before the creation of the welfare state, women have always worked either taking their babies with them or during the industrial revolution drugging them en mass to sleep and leaving them in basements of mills so they could bring in money to eat. We must also remember that children as young as 5 or 6 used to work whether that be in the fields, down the mines or beneath the machinery of mills necessitating the independance of mother and children.

for the poorer sections of society staying at home with your children has been a luxury not many were ever able to afford. i think it prudent to mention this to show how the element of choice has always been negated for sections of society.

there were outraged looks from family members when i didnt know how much my babies weighed. the same from other mothers who could not do the comparisons. Did i see my childrens first steps? probably, i cant remember and do not see the big deal. i can't remember their first words either. i haven't kept baby paintings or nursey items, i didn't keep the hospital bands or the umbilical clips. i havent kept baby clothes or memorabilia.

i try to be tollerant of other peoples concerns for their children, but i do wonder why modern day mothers ( mothers in the main) are so anally retentive about the rate at which their children are able to do things.

of course i keep my children as safe as i can, however i too think there needs to be a clear seperation between safety and independance. since when did mother = slave to tiny people?

being a good mother should not exclude the mother as a human being putting herself last all the time. Children can be independant and there is no bad thing attached to this. as long as (as Cam mentions) you can steer them clear of danger and advise them of wrong choices.

my mother told me that children are more resiliant than we ever give them credit for. i like to remind myself that child rearing has been happening for a long long long time.

my children are independant thinkers with their own sense of humour and social activities. they are capable of washing their uniform and ironing it. they are capable of making a meal and a cup of coffee when i get home from work. however they are incapable of taking a pen to school and telling me in advance of the day that they need money for a certain activity in school. my kids drape themselves across us when they watch tv with us, kiss us goodnight and detest each other generally. my kids do not depend on me to entertain them, but love dancing with me in the living room ( with the curtains shut)as my 12 yr old lad did ( we waltzed to something on fame acadamy!!) i hope demonstrating that love and independance come hand in hand in my family.

[hercules]

Just wanted to say that was a brillian post, custy! I love reading your posts on these things. So interesting.

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

[Gomez]

Custardo - you are a star!

[ionesmum]

I think maybe 'independence' isn't so much what the problem is as people who want their children to grow up too soon and can't wait to get them off their hands.

My dd1 is three and can go to the loo by herself, wash herself, brush her own teeth and get dressed. She helps with cooking (not just fairy cakes but family meals), loading and unloading the washing machine and folding laundry. If she spills something, I get her a cloth and she cleans it up -even if I have to do it again later. I can leave her with other adults sh eknows and I know she will be fine. She's also very adaptable and is happy in new places. I really do believe this is because when she was 'clingy' (not a derogatory term in my view although as I said I prefer 'attached') I was there for her. I know how lucky I am that I was able to be.

Dd2 is going through her attached phase atm. She's very different from her sister and again I will take my lead from her as to when she goes to pre-school etc.

My mum went out to work from when I was 6 mo. My gran was a cleaner in a factory. So I do know about mums needing to work.

Custie is dead right about society changing so that families are no longer available to look after little children, although the present government seems even more hell-bent on separating babies still at the breast from their loved ones to fuel the economy.

I live in a comfortable middle-class area. And I do see children being made to grow up too soon. I don't want to say more on that.

My dd1 was bought an 'Angelina Ballerina' comic that had advice on hair and make-up in it.

My friend's three-year-old has a Girls' World.

I know from experience where this leads and it isn't good.

[nightowl]

hi mama, (sorry which way should i abbreviate your name?!!) no i didnt think it was a working mother bashing thread at all, i just wanted to respond to swwk's first comment in her post sat 8.03pm. i think in some situations it is much better to have a child that doesnt cling. i can survive quite nicely on benefits, i have for the last year but if i want that little extra bit of money to save for our/their future or to take them on holiday etc etc then i have to work for it, and as ive already said, for me personally its better that i work anyway. not looking to turn it into a single mum thread either but we do tend to get a bashing either way in general life. ive never heard anyone say of a single mum on benefit (oh thats ok, she chose to stay at home to bring up her child), more like (shes scrounging) and ive never heard anyone say (she goes out to work to try and do her best for the child) more like (shes neglecting). my point was just on the working aspect really and that it does depend on the circumstances. im not saying i havent enjoyed my year with dd because we've had some lovely times (and im glad in fact that i wasnt working), i just think its the right time now to take this step.

[merrygoround]

Was thinking about this over the weekend. My first reaction was to be defensive of my own approach - which is to encourage independence by praising dd for all the things she manages to do for herself. My personal reason for having a child was to bring into the world a person who I hope will be a well adjusted and responsbile adult. I love seeing dd develop, and find it interesting that she makes loads of comments about growing up (I want to be big as you mum; I want to stay awake all day; etc). I feel that sometimes childhood is absurdly idealised by adults - and is that perhaps a luxury of the rich western world?

MMDDWW asked a question in her opening thread, which was "what do we gain by fostering early independence?" Well, personally I have no problem at all with this, as long as it is not taken to mean that I do not love and cherish and support my child.

I'll finish though by saying that my second reaction to the thread was to question whether I go too far in the direction of independence. I think I have been very preoccupied lately with issues to do with my relationship with dp, and that I have not spent enough "snuggling" time with dd. So have made a mental note to make sure dd gets more of my full attention when she is with me, but not to stop being delighted by seeing her growing independence. (Independence from me I mean - ie that she is developing her very own tastes and values etc - however exploratory and temporary they may be). Thanks for starting the thread, it has certainly got me thinking.

[ionesmum]

merrygoround, it's very difficult, isn't it? My dd1 is very motivated by being a 'big girl' so all the time she is praised for being so grown-up. And both dds are tall for their ages (although dd2 is only 12 mo) and look older than they are. And I find getting th ebalance between looking after the needs of both girls very hard - I think it's dd2 that suffers the most - and I'm looking forward to when they can do more things together.

[merrygoround]

ionesmum, yes it is hard to get the balance. I wonder if some children simply want to be grown up while others are happy with what childhood gives them? A very good friend of mine swears that all she ever wanted as a child was to grow up because she couldn't wait to have the freedom that she realised came with adulthood (well, relative freedom anyway). Or was it that her particular childhood was not very satisfying? I hated loads of things about being a child, mind you adulthood is not a bed of roses either!

I feel wary about romanticising childhood. I was thinking of things like the Montessori approach (I am no expert so expect to be corrected...) where there is emphasis on children doing "real" things - eg cleaning, cooking etc, as well as other "play" activities. My dd is so proud of herself when she helps me in the kitchen, perhaps putting something back in the fridge for example - maybe come a certain age she will feel very differently, but for now I see it as her learning the skills (motor, co-ordination, thinking etc) that are essential for coping with real life.

I am definitely NOT tempting fate, but every so often I almost look forward to my dd (3) getting ill so that she will revert to "needing" me more, and being my baby again.

[beachyhead]

This has made me think of how I came by my own independence.

My mother always told me that she and dad would ALWAYS be there for me - not always financially, but always there, interested and concerned. And they ALWAYS have.

They always gave me choices, sometimes offered advice and were not offended if I didn't take it. If I fell over, literally or metaphorically, they picked me up, brushed me off, and sent me on my way.......

They have NEVER expected anything of me and I don't owe them anything, financially or otherwise.

They are always pleased to see me, but would never complain if they didn't.

They showed me that if you have all the basic needs covered in this world, emotionally and to a certain extent, financially (ie, there will be a bed for me and a bowl of soup always), then you have the confidence to explore the world and lead an independant life with confidence.

I love them dearly and see them all the time and I thank them for making me independant and all the other things that I am today.

If I could do half as well, I'll be very pleased with myself.

[ionesmum]

merrygoround, my dd loves helping too, and I think that's healthy. But the Montessori approach also treats children as children. I think childhood is far more than preparation for adulthood, it's something of its own, to be savoured and enjoyed. What makes me want to weep are the three year olds in school uniform. My dd goes to pre-school in old clothes because she invariably comes home covered in paint!

Nice post, beachyhead, I recognise something of my own partents in what you say. They don't expect anything in return for their love and support, which means that I love them all the more.

[Cam]

Yes, who was it that said "Childhood is another country...."

[Jodiesmum]

I love this thread. Just wanted to say that in my experience, "clingy" is definitely used in a negative context - or at the very least, as less admirable than "non-clingy". My DD2 is almost 2 and still likes to stay right by my side or preferably in my arms. She's a lot better than she was 3 months ago but we're still getting constant comments, both from friends and complete strangers. A friend came round on Saturday and said quite crossly to DD2, "you need to be sent to nursery!" just because she cried when I left the room. DD2 spent her first 2 months in hospital where she had almost no physical contact of any kind (other than unpleasant medical stuff) so I'm really happy she's been able to form such a forceful attachment to me. I'm enjoying her getting the courage to play on the other side of the room sometimes but I want her to develop at her own pace and am SO sick of other people trying to hurry her up!

[merrygoround]

Interesting about childhood being something to enjoy and savour for itself, not just being preparation for adulthood. Is that a late 20th / 21st century thing? I obviously agree that childhood must be made as enjoyable as possible, but still can't help seeing it as a path to adulthood that must be gone down.

[ionesmum]

merrygoround, yes, childhood is an important stage in terms of learning about adulthood - how to be with other people, where we fit in to society and basic social skills as much as life skills such as dressing, washing etc. But there is also a magic about childhood that is lacking (for most of us at any rate) as adults. Our senses are much sharper when we are little - things taste, feel and smell very different. And children can be so free. I watch my dd running and laughing and wish I could run just for the sake of it - not to get fit or beat a time - just because I can. And I want to feel able to sing at the top of my voice even though it's out of tune and all the words are wrong just like she does. And I want to smear myself and every thing in sight with paint and draw huge pictures and have no-one mind that I can't paint for toffee. I want to believe that I can see Thomas the Tank Engine in the garden without taking vast amounts of illegal substances.

And I want to be free of the cynicism, weariness, mistrust and suspicion that are naturally part of adulthood. I don't want to care what people think or be valued according to my salary or ability. I want to be tucked in at night.

Sentimental? Maybe. But you only have to watch programmes like Comic Relief to see that wherever children are in the world they to behave in the same way, given half a chance. Unfortunately so few of them have that chance, which is one reason why our it is so wrong when our priviliged little ones ar erobbed of something most children never have the opportunity of experiencing.

[ionesmum]

Jodiesmum I can't believe your friend said that to you. It sounds like you have a beautiful relationship with your dd and I agree entirely that little ones have to go at their own pace. And I think that sometimes they have to work through experiences too. My dd1 was in NICU but only for a week (nothing like as difficult as the situation that you and your dd faced), and I am convinced that this experience plus her traumatic birth is why she screamed so much during the first few months of life and why she needed me at night so much.

[nightowl]

this thread really does make a person think doesnt it?! at the age i am now in some ways i am very inedependant, in others i just cringe and dont want to do stuff on my own at all. i had to do a lot of things for myself when i was younger and realised when i got older that this was perhaps a good thing in my case as ive had a lot to deal with as an adult and quite often, theres no-one to go running to, i just have to figure my own way out. at the same time, when pg with ds i had all these grand ideas of how i would bring him up, mostly different to my own upbringing but i still wanted him to be able to look after himself and to not crumble if life jumped up and bit him. its where to get a good balance i think. i know so many women who have been looked after all their life and have never had to do anything for themselves, the usual problems have been thrown at them and they have been lost, because theyve never been taught how to go it alone as such. the same, i had a fiance who would constantly moan at me (why couldnt i see him tonight? how could i possibly have so much to do, why was i too tired to go out etc etc) he was a lovely man but we had so many rows because of our different situations. we are the same age but whereas i had a house and a child (and had done for some time), he still lived with his parents and had no idea how to do anything for himself. when he came in from work tea was on the table, he was never asked to help with anything around the house, couldnt work the oven, or the washer, didnt even wash his own car and wouldnt have a clue how to put a shelf up or what to do with a spanner! his parents are lovely down to earth people, very well liked, and ive absolutely no doubt that he was brought up very well. no doubt at all but i did used to think that perhaps he had just had too much done for him at times. i dont think it hurts to let kids have a certain amount of independance so long of course that its not affecting their safety or pushing them to grow up when they dont need to yet. looking at the far future, i am happy for my kids to live with me for as long as they like and would never turf them out but at the same time, i want them to be able to look after themselves if the need arises.

[Tortington]

good post nightowl