School for child with severe speech & language delay

[AmIBeingTwatty]

Hello, I’m hoping for parents of children with similar needs to share their experiences with me.
My son is 4 and only has 2 words. He doesn’t point, shrug, pull hands etc and doesn’t communicate using makaton or pecs.
Can I ask for experiences of both special & mainstream provisions please.

[mightybrave]

@GooseMooseBurger

My DS had S&L delay, although he was more verbal than your DS at 4, he was very echolalic and his understanding was v poor. He had an ASD diagnosis at age 3 and went to a SN nursery. He started at a special school for children with ASD in reception. His speech and language has come on leaps and bounds, although still delayed and I think he will always struggle. He loves school and is very, very happy there.

Hi GooseMooseBurger,

I hope you’re well.
I wanted to ask how your son is doing now.
how’s his speech and understanding come along since this post?
My younger son who has been diagnosed with ASD and speech delay turns 4 in two weeks. He will start school next September and I’m trying to make the best choice for him but it’s really hard to know what to do sometimes.
He will name objects and say one word to communicate but nothing more than that. Most of his speech is scripting/delayed echolalia (peppa pig, Julia Donaldson books, Christmas songs).
I remember when he started to script, I was so happy that he could say new words but it seems it is a coping mechanism for him sometimes and not really a sign of his speech progressing.
Does your son still script?

I hope you don’t mind me contacting you. It’s a very lonely world as a parent of a SEN child and I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

Kind regards,
Harpreet

[AmIBeingTwatty]

Hopefully the SALT assessment will lead to more for you, fingers crossed! I’m sorry you had such a rubbish time in primary, it’s such a big worry isn’t it; our children being lonely.

[sproutsnbacon]

We have just had a SALT assessment and I have been asking for SALT intervention since he was 2 as it was obvious there was an issue. He’s very bright but does have a few development issues so he’s a strange combination of way ahead on a few things, average at most things and a few really important things are way behind
I had speech issues and hearing problems when I started school and being with my peers was of no benefit for the first few years until I got help with both so I could interact with other children. It’s a bloody lonely existence and one that has had a lasting effect even though my life is successful now.

[SinkGirl]

@sproutsnbacon

I’ve got a 3 year who starts school in September who can speak in full sentences with a wide vocabulary but such dreadful pronunciation issues I can only understand him 70% of the time. Nursery haven’t a clue most of the time. In nursery he’s got very few friends because other children can’t understand him. I’m very worried about how’s he will cope with the work especially the phonics. If someone offered me a special school place I’d leap at the chance. What I will probably do is move so he can attend a very small village school.
With the best will in the world a teacher and ta with 30 children struggle to give each child enough attention even if none of the children need extra support. If you do want mainstream look for small village schools as some of them specialise in taking children with sen.
I hope you find the right school as it all very stressful trying to do the best for your child.

Is your child under SALT? If their understanding is good and they can speak in full sentences then specialist would probably not be wise as he probably wouldn’t have a peer group matched to his aptitude. I’m sure SALT would help - we think one of our twins has childhood apraxia of speech as well as language and cognition delays due to autism but he doesn’t understand enough to do or even copy exercises.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

Brilliant. Thank you so much again for all your help & advice, it’s really appreciated!

[SinkGirl]

Also be warned that schools who’ve said they couldn’t meet needs can change their tune when they receive a formal consultation. Another reason to make sure the plan is as detailed as possible!

[SinkGirl]

If we are willing to pay fees for an independent mainstream that could support him, would that make any difference, or wouldn’t we be required to if we could prove they could meet his needs?

You shouldn’t have to do this, if no state funded mainstream can meet needs then the LA will have to find somewhere that can, either a specialist or an independent mainstream. But be careful - if you fund a place yourself the LA can argue that you you have made alternative arrangements for their education and this removes their obligation to fund the plan. Very very important to get proper advice on this, from IPSEA or similar.

Bear in mind, my twins places cost nearly £50k a year each, an independent mainstream would be less than half that and even with 1:1 time would still be a lot cheaper. The specialist academy they wanted to name was about £12k a year cheaper, but didn’t include 1:1 whereas our school’s costs did - once we proved 1:1 was needed, our school became the cheaper of the two. It’s all very complex and sounds overwhelming but you’ll learn as you go.

Would recommend joining the Facebook group Educational Equality - lots of parents who’ve been there and who can answer questions.

Non-section 41 schools are a different situation - if you want one to be named the onus is on you to prove that it’s the only school that can meet needs, and the school can’t be named unless they have made a formal offer of a place. I think this is explained on IPSEA, but it’s all quite confusing initially.

If the EP does state that small classes are needed, make sure that this is quantified (small class could mean 25 children as that’s smaller than a state mainstream, or it might mean 5 which would rule out many settings). Once you get your draft plan, go through all the reports and highlight all the needs in one colour and provisions in another and make sure they are all in there. When reports are too vague you can ask the person who wrote them to be more specific - even though the statutory guidance says it must be specific, they will usually refuse or be as vague as they can get away with sadly. But if you can get a private EP report that will give you a lot more evidence.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@SinkGirl just had a look at the IPSEA link you sent and I understand now, thank you.
The school isn’t a section 41 school, however, I have in my favour (hopefully) the fact that a handful of mainstream schools local to us have already said they couldn’t support my son.
If the EP states he would need smaller class sizes that would also go in our favour hopefully?

Off to gather contact details for independents schools now, thank you so much again!

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@sproutsnbacon it certainly is! Good luck to you and your child, I hope you find a suitable village school! We have one not far from us, only has 60 children in the whole school. They have one class for FS2, one for KS1 and one for KS2. Unfortunately, when I emailed them, they said they wouldn’t be able to support my son.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@SinkGirl I honestly cannot thank you enough for all this information, you have been so helpful!
I’ve spoken to the senco at 6 schools closest to us so far and they’ve all said they couldn’t support him.
If we are willing to pay fees for an independent mainstream that could support him, would that make any difference, or wouldn’t we be required to if we could prove they could meet his needs?
If they’re not a section 41 school, is it unlikely they will make it in the plan?
Will look at getting an independent EP report, thanks for that suggestion.
Unfortunately we’re nowhere near Dorset. There seems to be 1 special school for primary age for ASD & social communication in our LA and I’ve heard it’s extremely hard to get into. They do have a nursery too, but I would need to apply ASAP for a September place and we’ve not got the EHCP draft yet and who knows if it’ll end up in tribunal.

[sproutsnbacon]

I’ve got a 3 year who starts school in September who can speak in full sentences with a wide vocabulary but such dreadful pronunciation issues I can only understand him 70% of the time. Nursery haven’t a clue most of the time. In nursery he’s got very few friends because other children can’t understand him. I’m very worried about how’s he will cope with the work especially the phonics. If someone offered me a special school place I’d leap at the chance. What I will probably do is move so he can attend a very small village school.
With the best will in the world a teacher and ta with 30 children struggle to give each child enough attention even if none of the children need extra support. If you do want mainstream look for small village schools as some of them specialise in taking children with sen.
I hope you find the right school as it all very stressful trying to do the best for your child.

[SinkGirl]

If an independent school is named in the plan, the LA are responsible for the fees and the cost of anything in section F. This is why it’s so important to ensure you have a thorough plan with all needs identified in section B and a specific and quantified provision in section F for every need. Without this, the LA don’t have to fund things, and you’re likely to get schools saying they can meet needs when they can’t.

[SinkGirl]

@AmIBeingTwatty

She said that he would need 1-1 support in a mainstream, but then we were told that EHCP funding wouldn’t cover the cost of this.
She hasn’t yet produced her assessment for the EHCP so yet to see whether they’re going to recommend special or not. Ideally I would like to be visiting prospective schools, but that’s not possible at the moment. Hopefully once schools reopen we will be able to do this.
I feel like it’s been very mixed messages and we’ve found it very difficult.

Is it possible to name a mainstream independent in the EHCP? Does anyone know if we would also have to cover the cost of a 1-1 in this scenario on top of fees, or would the LA cover the 1-1 cost if its named in his plan?
Sorry, I’m new to all this, which is probably clear, and just want to be armed with as much knowledge as possible so I’m not fobbed off.

What she’s told you is bollocks. Both my twins have full time 1:1 in their specialist school but I had to get private EP reports and go to tribunal to get this. If the EP establishes that 1:1 is needed, that goes into section F of the plan. Every single provision in section F has to be funded either by the school as part of their existing budget if mainstream, or by the LA to make up the difference.

Unfortunately LA EPs will usually not write that 1:1 is required even when it’s blatantly obvious. They’ll say things like “high level of adult support”. I would love to tell you that it’s possible you’ll get a good enough report from the LA EP but I’ve been around EHCP groups for two years now and I’ve never seen it happen. Unfortunately to get a properly specified plan and the right placement you often need to appeal.

Independent schools are tricky and it’s quite complex. Essentially the main thing it comes down to is cost. The LA will want to name the closest, cheapest school that can meet needs. If a mainstream school says that they can meet the needs in the plan, the LA will name it and you would need to appeal.

Independent mainstream schools are obviously more expensive than state mainstream schools, but significantly cheaper than specialist. So if no mainstream schools can meet needs then you’re more likely to get an independent mainstream named than a specialist.

There’s also the issue of whether an independent school is on the section 41 list or not which has an impact on how things proceed. This info from IPSEA is really helpful, as is all the info on their website. It’s a good idea to stalk their helpline booking page to get an appointment to ask lots of questions.

www.ipsea.org.uk/choosing-a-schoolcollege-with-an-ehc-plan

You can also ask your local SENDIASS service for advice, but be warned - some are great, some are not.

[SinkGirl]

We are in Dorset - feel free to message me if you’re local, happy to give you some info.

Although it’s 18 months until your child would start mainstream, it’s likely there is some specialist early years provision either in specialist nurseries or as part of the specialist schools.

It’s very likely there is autism specific provision somewhere near you. We have two ASD specific schools nearby (one LA run and ours which is a non-maintained specialist school which means it’s run as a not for profit by a charity), and then a handful of specialists for learning disabilities. There are also some insanely expensive (£100k plus a year) schools run by private groups like Cambrian, but usually not for such little ones.

Then there’s independent mainstream schools, or ASD bases within mainstream schools. Obviously provision varies a lot by area, but make sure you’re thorough in your search.

[ThisIsNotARealAvo]

If he can't communicate and doesn't respond to his name, he will struggle in a mainstream reception class. I'm Early Years leader in a mainstream school with a resource base and I have about 15 years experience working with children with ASC. He will not learn as much from other children in a mainstream school as he would in a specialist school with highly trained staff. He will get better SALT support and modelling from the adults in a special school. Also, many children with ASC struggle in a busy reception class, where the majority of the day is free flow and it can be too noisy and overstimulating for some children.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

She said that he would need 1-1 support in a mainstream, but then we were told that EHCP funding wouldn’t cover the cost of this.
She hasn’t yet produced her assessment for the EHCP so yet to see whether they’re going to recommend special or not. Ideally I would like to be visiting prospective schools, but that’s not possible at the moment. Hopefully once schools reopen we will be able to do this.
I feel like it’s been very mixed messages and we’ve found it very difficult.

Is it possible to name a mainstream independent in the EHCP? Does anyone know if we would also have to cover the cost of a 1-1 in this scenario on top of fees, or would the LA cover the 1-1 cost if its named in his plan?
Sorry, I’m new to all this, which is probably clear, and just want to be armed with as much knowledge as possible so I’m not fobbed off.

[dancemonkeys]

What has the Ed Psych said?

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@SinkGirl that school sounds absolutely amazing. I just read that post to my husband. Do you mind sharing where in the country the school is?

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@SinkGirl sorry I’ve just seen your other post. That sounds fantastic and I’m so pleased your sons are doing so well!
Where we live, there are either mainstream or special schools with children much more severe than my son. I’m like you- while he does have some difficulties, he also has lots of strengths and I do think that with the right support, he could really progress.
My concern with special is that he would get by, as opposed to reach his full potential, if that makes sense?
I also have the same concerns as you about mainstream- simple things that you’d take for granted - answering yes Miss to the register, choosing partners for sports, choosing lunch etc are all things that he is currently incapable of.

I agree with PP who said it’s so hard to know how he will be in 18 months. It’s such a long time.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@BendingSpoons he can’t communicate his wants. He is under dietician as he regularly refuses food. He says Bobby for milk, which is all he will drink. Rarely eats.
He doesn’t respond to his name usually, if he does it takes many attempts and you have to do it when he isn’t doing something else.
All his reports say rigid attention.

@SinkGirl yes this is what my husband is now thinking. As he would get smaller class sizes and hopefully they’re able to offer more support.

[SinkGirl]

[quote AmIBeingTwatty]@BendingSpoons in the process of EHCP and he has a diagnosis. His speech and language therapist has said that mainstream would be better for him in terms of his speech; because in a special school he wouldn’t have the modelling, would hear less speech etc
But then in the next sentence said - but he would no doubt struggle with a class of 30 and mainstream would present other problems for him.
It made me even more confused.[/quote]
In that case look at independent schools nearby as well as specialist.

[SinkGirl]

Hi OP. I have twins who are 4 now. They were diagnosed with ASD at 2, I applied for EHCPs just before they turned 3, we went through a long process (plans were issued but they were absolutely crap and the LA wanted to name a school for severe learning disabilities which my twins don’t have - they are non verbal and delayed but both very able to learn and we don’t believe they have intellectual impairments). I had to appeal the plans and placement - their tribunals were in September just after their 4th birthday, we won and they started at an ASD specialist school in early October and were then full time from that half term. Obviously this term has been a write off so far but it has been amazing for them, truly. One is now spelling and starting to read, although still non verbal.

They were not due to start reception until September this year. The provisions vary by area but here there are no specialist nurseries - some of the specialist schools have early years provision from age 2 but you need an EHCP so it’s rare to start before 3 or 4.

For me it was a no brainer - if going to mainstream they would have stayed at nursery for this year where they weren’t really progressing, then gone to a mainstream school where they wouldn’t have understood anything or been able to interact with peers. Instead they’re in a tiny class of 7, every child in that class has full time 1:1, they’re all trained in ASD, they have sensory rooms, soft play rooms, forest school, weekly trips out, swimming pool, even half a term of equine therapy every year. They have OT and SALT on site, their paediatrician runs clinics at the school, it’s just an entirely different experience than mainstream. Autism specific strategies are embedded throughout the day, the building is designed around the needs of autistic children so lots of individual rooms in their building, low arousal environment... it’s just an entirely different proposition.

The private EP who did reports for our boys said that there is no reason they cannot make significant progress in a setting like this. The school does dual placements with a mainstream school for those who can manage. Once they’re in the main school there are academic streams and sensory / life skills streams depending on how things progress, and all being well they can stay at this site until 16.

I would have been really concerned about them going to the school for profound and multiple learning disabilities- there was lots in their OFSTED reports that concerned me in terms of whether they’d have an appropriate peer group. From that information I know that one of my twins can already spell better than some of the children 3x his age for example, and the report raised concerns about low expectations for more able pupils. However, I would probably still have taken that over mainstream because I just cannot understand how they would have managed.

So it really depends on the school and your child’s needs - have you had a look at what’s available locally?

The other thing to consider is independent mainstream schools - there are lots of children who couldn’t cope in a maintained mainstream school due to large class sizes etc but cope well in an independent with fewer children. Also much cheaper than specialist so easier to fight for.

[BendingSpoons]

Part of your difficulty is you have 18m until he starts school, so he may progress lots. I would ask about changing a named provision later, but I would have thought you can still apply for a mainstream place next Jan as normal.

If children can access an adapted curriculum, then having mainstream peers can be advantageous but if the gap is too big, I think it can be more isolating.

What is he like in terms of attention? Does he respond to his name? How does he tell you what he wants?

[Nix32]

SEN schools are much better placed to provide support and expertise. Mainstream staff will try their best but classes will be larger and the expertise may not be there.

[AmIBeingTwatty]

@ConeHat thank you for replying. How does your son find it? Do you think the school really helped his speech? What’s his speech like now? Sorry for all the questions.